Well, I've been reading the Book of Mormon regularly lately. The sad part is that I haven't felt any Spirit as I do it. I am interested in it, and the blasts of wisdom it provides, amidst the secular histories.
Part of me wants to pray for an additional testimony (in addition to the spiritual experiences I had on my mission). But Moroni's promise being contingent on "real intent" is a stumbling block. If given a strong spiritual experience after reading the Book of Mormon, or while reading it, am I really willing to embrace the gospel wholeheartedly?
Tithing would be a massive obstacle as I enter my twilight years and will have greater financial needs than my old body can provide....
What are your thoughts, would you be praying for a renewal of testimony in these circumstances? Would you be willing to act on a testimony building experience in prayer given your experiences with the LDS church and its gospel?
God's Willingness To Give additional Testimony
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SilentDawning
- Posts: 7668
- Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55
God's Willingness To Give additional Testimony
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
Re: God's Willingness To Give additional Testimony
I don't think that spiritual experiences can be earned, so praying for those experiences and/or coming back to the church community seems like it might not necessarily be able to provide that or be worth that personal cost.
I don't think that personal experiences are a good benchmark for personal worth over time. The times I was "living well" didn't always have spiritual experiences and there have been many times when I wasn't living according to the regulations given by the church organization and had spiritual or emotional experiences.
I think considering each decision point with a very boundaried approach (which is against church culture who wants church members to be "all in") and focusing on "Can I Say Yes to This" and listening to self is useful. I have found that when I say "Yes" resentfully, it means that I should have said "No" or "Yes and boundaries" instead - and that I wasted personal resources of mine because I went with an "All-in Yes" that wasn't healthy or sustainable for me.
There are tons of self-help resources out there to "generate good experiences" (both church centric and church neutral) that might be worth your attention to give yourself more meaningful experiences.
I don't think that personal experiences are a good benchmark for personal worth over time. The times I was "living well" didn't always have spiritual experiences and there have been many times when I wasn't living according to the regulations given by the church organization and had spiritual or emotional experiences.
I think considering each decision point with a very boundaried approach (which is against church culture who wants church members to be "all in") and focusing on "Can I Say Yes to This" and listening to self is useful. I have found that when I say "Yes" resentfully, it means that I should have said "No" or "Yes and boundaries" instead - and that I wasted personal resources of mine because I went with an "All-in Yes" that wasn't healthy or sustainable for me.
There are tons of self-help resources out there to "generate good experiences" (both church centric and church neutral) that might be worth your attention to give yourself more meaningful experiences.
Re: God's Willingness To Give additional Testimony
It is interesting that Jesus didn’t emphasize spiritual experiences much; rather, he emphasized love expressed in action.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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Minyan Man
- Posts: 2303
- Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40
Re: God's Willingness To Give additional Testimony
What are your thoughts,
would you be praying for a renewal of testimony in these circumstances?
No. I let God reveal himself on his own terms & at his own time & in his own way.
Would you be willing to act on a testimony building experience in prayer given your experiences with the LDS church and its gospel?
Maybe.
My spiritual expectations are not very dramatic. I don't have very high expectations. I am open for God or Heavenly Father revealing himself
in smaller & unexpected ways. Since coming to StayLDS.com, I do consider myself fully active again. It is just not the same way as it was prior
to my FC. I do pay tithing, I have a Temple Recommend (I rarely use it). I don't have a leadership position (that is my choice). On rare occasions,
I do speak up during PH & SS (diplomatically). I rarely follow the "party" line. I do speak in Sacrament Meetings. I rarely speak on the assigned
topics. I usually speak from talks by church leaders that "move" me. (Elder Uchtdorf)
In other words, I live the gospel on my own terms & don't usually go into explanations. I have some very close friends that understand where
I'm coming from & don't judge. They can talk with me & know that I won't judge or communicate with others in our ward. I extend myself to
others that are new in the ward. In many ways, I feel that this is the way God answers my prayers & needs. (For now.)
This is my answers to your questions. I hope this makes some kind of sense.
would you be praying for a renewal of testimony in these circumstances?
No. I let God reveal himself on his own terms & at his own time & in his own way.
Would you be willing to act on a testimony building experience in prayer given your experiences with the LDS church and its gospel?
Maybe.
My spiritual expectations are not very dramatic. I don't have very high expectations. I am open for God or Heavenly Father revealing himself
in smaller & unexpected ways. Since coming to StayLDS.com, I do consider myself fully active again. It is just not the same way as it was prior
to my FC. I do pay tithing, I have a Temple Recommend (I rarely use it). I don't have a leadership position (that is my choice). On rare occasions,
I do speak up during PH & SS (diplomatically). I rarely follow the "party" line. I do speak in Sacrament Meetings. I rarely speak on the assigned
topics. I usually speak from talks by church leaders that "move" me. (Elder Uchtdorf)
In other words, I live the gospel on my own terms & don't usually go into explanations. I have some very close friends that understand where
I'm coming from & don't judge. They can talk with me & know that I won't judge or communicate with others in our ward. I extend myself to
others that are new in the ward. In many ways, I feel that this is the way God answers my prayers & needs. (For now.)
This is my answers to your questions. I hope this makes some kind of sense.
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Minyan Man
- Posts: 2303
- Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40
Re: God's Willingness To Give additional Testimony
Another way to put it:
God's willingness to give us additional testimony or to answer our personal prayers is limited on our own personal expectations
with time & God's willingness to answer. By this I mean, JS got his answer in the sacred grove at the very moment he knelt in prayer.
Some of us won't get our answer in our lifetime.
Our Missionary approach has been to challenge "investigators" & come back in a week & ask for a commitment to be baptized.
Why? Because we have a preconceived idea about God's timetable & overall plan. It doesn't always work that way. Another preconceived
idea is: when I lose my car keys all I need to do is pray, God will answer my prayer & He will show me where the keys are. All in time
to get to church on time. Sometimes we have to be patient & wait for the answer or inspiration to come or work through the problem
on our own.
Good topic SD!
God's willingness to give us additional testimony or to answer our personal prayers is limited on our own personal expectations
with time & God's willingness to answer. By this I mean, JS got his answer in the sacred grove at the very moment he knelt in prayer.
Some of us won't get our answer in our lifetime.
Our Missionary approach has been to challenge "investigators" & come back in a week & ask for a commitment to be baptized.
Why? Because we have a preconceived idea about God's timetable & overall plan. It doesn't always work that way. Another preconceived
idea is: when I lose my car keys all I need to do is pray, God will answer my prayer & He will show me where the keys are. All in time
to get to church on time. Sometimes we have to be patient & wait for the answer or inspiration to come or work through the problem
on our own.
Good topic SD!
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SilentDawning
- Posts: 7668
- Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55
Re: God's Willingness To Give additional Testimony
After reading the Book of Mormon a lot, and pondering the responses here, I don't think I have the real intent necessary to get a new testimony. I am tainted by life experience in the church, unfortunately, to the point that full blown service seems distasteful to me. I am not sure I could go back to it. And I think that disqualifies me from any major revelations.
Last edited by SilentDawning on 20 Aug 2024, 12:18, edited 1 time in total.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
Re: God's Willingness To Give additional Testimony
How can we help you here? What kind of major revelations do you feel or think that you need for your life?SilentDawning wrote: ↑19 Aug 2024, 17:14 After reading the Book of Mormon a lot, and pondering the responses here, I don't think I have the real intent necessary to get a new testimony. I am tainted by life experience in the church, unfortunately, to the point that full blow service seems distasteful to me. I am not sure I could go back to it. And I think that disqualifies me from any major revelations.
I can't help you a lot here because what I am getting from this post is a focus on "what you are going wrong / your actions aren't good enough" vs the randomness of interacting with God.
Re: God's Willingness To Give additional Testimony
I think it can be similar to getting back the childlike wonder and magic of Christmas again. There are certainly things that you can do to put you in a more Christmassy mood, like listening to the music, watching the movies, maybe going sledding, or treating yourself to some hot cocoa with marshmallows, and definitely surround yourself with people that you care about. However, even with all this, I do not think that one could achieve the same childlike sense of wonder and magic and this is 100% not because you are doing it wrong or failing to try hard enough.
I also do not mean to say that traditional believers are foolish or gullible, just that they have not gone through the same sorts of experiences that many of us here have that fundamentally altered our perspectives.
I also do not mean to say that traditional believers are foolish or gullible, just that they have not gone through the same sorts of experiences that many of us here have that fundamentally altered our perspectives.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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SilentDawning
- Posts: 7668
- Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55
Re: God's Willingness To Give additional Testimony
I am not sure how anyone can help me here. I partly use this site as a kind of interactive journal where I record my thoughts and questions, and then make decisions after I hear what others have to say. Others, like yourself, who aren't bound by the standard answers you get when you ask traditional believing Mormons. Sometimes I come to a conclusion, other times the idea just sits unsettled, perhaps never to be answered. So, your answers to my questions are probably the most help you can provide.
When I was a teenager, a few close friends turned on me, and I also lost a girlfriend. At the time (I was 15) this was really hard on me, and I went into my first kind of depression. My parents asked me to meet with our United Church of Canada minister. He FILLED ME with the holy ghost as he taught me about God. Once, I left his office full of joy to the point I hugged myself once on the way out of his office. And while praying one night, I felt this overpowering spirituality come over me as I knelt by my bedside and prayed. It was a clear revelation at the time that God existed.What kind of major revelations do you feel or think that you need for your life?
I can't help you a lot here because what I am getting from this post is a focus on "what you are going wrong / your actions aren't good enough" vs the randomness of interacting with God.
When the LDS missionaries taught me at the age of 20, when they told me about Moroni's promise, I felt I understood what revelation felt like given my bedside experience at 15, about 4-5 years previously. I expected it to be the same overpowering experience I had at 15 which, to this day, has me believing in God. And this in spite of all the other negative things that have happened to me in the LDS Church.
It took me over a year of praying for a similar experience to have that same kind of overpowering spirituality in response to the question "Is the Mormon church true and should I become a member of it?". The experience I eventually had was about 60% of what I experienced as a 15 year old praying to God, but it was enough to convince me that I should join the LDS Church.
At the time, I accepted Joseph Smith and Christ on faith. One thing my minister never could convince me of was the need for a savior or that He even existed as a divine being on earth. The missionaries clarified this for me with the passages in the BoM about the law of justice and mercy -- something that wasn't clearly stated in the Bible. All of a sudden, the BoM clarified for me the phrase my parents and minister had said "Jesus died for our sins". I heard that a lot and never knew what it meant. But the Book of Mormon explained it clearly -- and this helped develop my current affinity for the Book of Mormon. It did answer questions that the Bible was rather vague about. To this day, The BoM is my go to scripture for that reason.
So, that kind of electric, overpowering almost hurting sensation in direct response to a question is the kind of revelation I need to really believe something -- to answer your question.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
Re: God's Willingness To Give additional Testimony
Thank you for sharing:)
I can respect that and it makes more sense to me.
I don't have a lot of faith, but I do believe that if something really needs to happen - something happens.
In my life, I have a pattern of getting what I perceive as promptings when something really needed to happen - for me to serve a mission, for us to move to the Mid-West, for us to have our 2nd child.
If anything, for each of those situations I was living "less worthily" but apparently needed that answer more. It's in years past hindsight that I see how much I needed that answer at that time. I still don't understand it.
I can respect that and it makes more sense to me.
I don't have a lot of faith, but I do believe that if something really needs to happen - something happens.
In my life, I have a pattern of getting what I perceive as promptings when something really needed to happen - for me to serve a mission, for us to move to the Mid-West, for us to have our 2nd child.
If anything, for each of those situations I was living "less worthily" but apparently needed that answer more. It's in years past hindsight that I see how much I needed that answer at that time. I still don't understand it.