Visionary outpourings in early 1800

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Roy
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Visionary outpourings in early 1800

Post by Roy »

The interview with church historian and BYU professor, Dr. Harper has sent me down a bit of a Rabbit hole. In the interview, Dr. Harper talks about contemporaries of JS that likewise experienced visions.

I found an article in LDS Living that gives some great summary:

https://www.ldsliving.com/3-ways-the-re ... 20brighter.
The religious culture of this time period produced many visionaries who published their manifestations in newspapers and pamphlets. Susan Juster, a non-LDS scholar, identified over 300 people who claimed visionary experiences during the time of Joseph Smith's parents (See Susan Juster, Doomsayers: Anglo-American Prophecy in the Age of Revolution. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2003) ... Indeed, Joseph Smith Sr. was a visionary man himself. His wife Lucy recorded at least seven heavenly manifestations he had received years prior to their son's First Vision in 1820.
1. God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to many people in Joseph Smith's day.
At least 20 people besides Joseph Smith saw God and/or Christ as a man, and a majority reported that the vision came in response to a prayer during a period of trial. Half were given specific instruction (four of which were told that no true church currently existed), and eight reported an evil presence just before the vision opened.

One notable individual was the well-known Protestant minister, Charles G. Finney, who saw the Lord face to face in 1821 while praying for forgiveness. Another individual, Norris Stearns of Greenfield, Massachusetts, reported seeing God the Father and Christ together in vision in 1815. This occurred during a time of deep reflection and intense depression of the soul. As he lay struggling with darkness, he saw a vision filled with light that grew brighter and brighter. He saw two personages, each in the form of a man.

Similar to Joseph Smith, another visionary, Nathan Culver, recorded in 1791 that his room gradually got brighter until he saw two personages, God the Father and Christ, at the Father's right-hand side.
2. Several people published visions containing messages about the Restoration of the everlasting gospel.
Several people who published their visionary experiences related the messages they received from the heavenly personages. For example, in 1810 an angelic personage appeared to Chloe Willey from Goshen, New Hampshire, and told her that the day would shortly come when the restoration of Christ's church would be established and would be accompanied by miracles and many healings.

When God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Norris Stearns in 1815, They told him that "a greater work . . . will soon be manifest; for the Angel that has the Everlasting Gospel to preach is coming" (The Religious Experience of Norris Stearns. Greenfield, MA: n.p. 1815). One year later, an angel appeared to Solomon Chamberlin from Old Canaan, Connecticut, and told him that all churches were corrupt and God would "soon raise up a church that would be after the apostolic order" (Solomon Chamberlain, "Short Sketch of the Life of Solomon Chamberlain, Written 11 July 1858," LDS Church Archives).

Another individual published his vision just 10 days after Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith. In this vision, the Lord told Asa Wild of West Fairlee, Vermont, that every Christian denomination had become corrupt and that He was now raising up a "class of persons" that would receive the everlasting gospel.
I am seeing multiple people having visions. Some saw God, some saw Christ, and some saw both. There was also a movement of seekers that were having revelations predicting a restoration of a true church.

The vision of Norris Stearns is only touched upon in the article above. The more full account is as follows:

“At length, as I lay apparently upon the brink of eternal woe, seeing nothing but death before me, suddenly there came a sweet flow of the love of God to my soul, which gradually increased. At the same time, there appeared a small gleam of light in the room, above the brightness of the sun, then at his meridian, which grew brighter and brighter: As this light and love increased, my sins began to separate, and the Mountain [of sin] removed towards the east. At length, being in an ecstasy of joy, I turned to the other side of the bed, (whether in the body or out I cannot tell, God knoweth) there I saw two spirits, which I knew at the first sight. But if I had the tongue of an Angel I could not describe their glory, for they brought the joys of heaven with them. One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a Cloud. In looking steadfastly to discern features, I could see none, but a small glimpse would appear in some other place. Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man-His face was not ablaze, but had the countenance of fire, being bright and shining. His Father’s will appeared to be his! All was condescension, peace, and love!! I was filled with the sacred flame, and the glory of God; I thought one spark more in my soul would have destroyed this mortal frame!! I was happy!!! happy!!! happy!!! I wanted ten thousand tongues to sing their sweet, their glorious praise!! It was a heaven here below for the space of half an hour!! But how infinitely short must I come of describing their glory, for want of language to paint my feelings! For the joys of Heaven so far surpass all bounds of description, or human conception, that christians here below come infinitely short of forming a competent idea of the joys that await the righteous: ‘Eye hath not seen, Ear hath not heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man to conceive of those good things, the Father hath prepared for them that love him.'”
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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DarkJedi
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Re: Visionary outpourings in early 1800

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I read that article once a while back and have read some other similar accounts. It's actually part of the reason some people in Joseph's day saw him as a charlatan. Lots of people had these visions. They could all be charlatans, it could be none of them were charlatans (all telling the truth) or maybe some were charlatans and some weren't. How are we to know? I believe Joseph believed he saw what he saw. The others may have believed likewise (although I think some were probably charlatans, but I have no way of know which are which).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Old-Timer
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Re: Visionary outpourings in early 1800

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DJ said essentially what I would have said. 😀
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Roy
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Re: Visionary outpourings in early 1800

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One of the impressions that I am struck by is the extent to which JS was an integrator of ideas.

Some elements of the LDS church might be completely unique, but I am continuously surprised to learn about other sources in the environment of JS that might have influenced his thinking.
DarkJedi wrote: 10 Jul 2024, 12:43 I read that article once a while back and have read some other similar accounts. It's actually part of the reason some people in Joseph's day saw him as a charlatan.
Yeah, some people would go straight to charlatan. For me, reading these other visionary accounts helps me to understand that JS was not the first to see the father and the son. We like to assign a value to the FV that it broke into pieces forever the idea of the trinity but that seems to be a mis-reading of history. There were others that were having visions and some were seeing God and Jesus as separate people.

I'm also noting that several of those receiving visions were told that no true church currently existed and at least one was told that all churches were corrupt. I'm noting that there were movements of "seekers" looking for a restoration of Christ's church and using the word "restoration." I am seeing elements of the FV that were already embedded within the environment in which JS lived.

This does not mean that he copied others or that he made it up. With other revelations and translations of JS, it seems that the inspiration of God is pulled through the mind of JS and it comes forth with some percentage of the mind, environment, and influencers of JS mixed in. I am now thinking that the FV could be similar, and if it is an ethereal and ineffable vision then we might expect it to be similar.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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DarkJedi
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Re: Visionary outpourings in early 1800

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Roy wrote: 11 Jul 2024, 15:45 I'm also noting that several of those receiving visions were told that no true church currently existed and at least one was told that all churches were corrupt. I'm noting that there were movements of "seekers" looking for a restoration of Christ's church and using the word "restoration." I am seeing elements of the FV that were already embedded within the environment in which JS lived.

This does not mean that he copied others or that he made it up. With other revelations and translations of JS, it seems that the inspiration of God is pulled through the mind of JS and it comes forth with some percentage of the mind, environment, and influencers of JS mixed in. I am now thinking that the FV could be similar, and if it is an ethereal and ineffable vision then we might expect it to be similar.
I don't think this was an unusual idea at the time. I think many were in search of the "Biblical" church (as it existed in Bible times) and I think that continues to some extent today. I think Joseph makes it pretty clear that his aim was to restore the Biblical church as the church organization progressed. I think it was likewise not unusual for people to believe the American Indians were of Jewish descent. Like you I'm not saying Joseph stole these ideas, they just seem to be ideas that were held by at least some (probably including Joseph's family) and perhaps even somewhat widely held.

Back to the charlatan thing, we do have some account of reaction to Joseph's accounts when he first offered it in the canonized version of the FV. This probably also led to Joseph's reluctance to share the FV with others.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Re: Visionary outpourings in early 1800

Post by Roy »

DarkJedi wrote: 12 Jul 2024, 12:07 I don't think this was an unusual idea at the time. I think many were in search of the "Biblical" church (as it existed in Bible times) and I think that continues to some extent today. I think Joseph makes it pretty clear that his aim was to restore the Biblical church as the church organization progressed. I think it was likewise not unusual for people to believe the American Indians were of Jewish descent. Like you I'm not saying Joseph stole these ideas, they just seem to be ideas that were held by at least some (probably including Joseph's family) and perhaps even somewhat widely held.
Right. The LDS movement has distinct 19th century American markings on it. I suppose that this is part of my deconstruction. I'm now adjusting more and more to the description by Bro. Givens of JS being a "speculative thinker." JS was "pushing boundaries, asking new questions trying often by a process of trial to test new ideas and insights and challenge conventional religious thinking."

JS was a product of his 19th century American environment, the LDS church was a product of this environment, the BoM (and especially the main thesis that Native Americans were descended from the house of Israel) was a product this environment. Brother Joseph did do some really amazing things AND some absolutely dumb things. Now, looking back from the vantage point of 200 years (and from access to the age of information) it all seems rather dated - as though - if it was a revelation, it was a revelation for them at that time and becomes less and less relevant for us in our time with each passing year. JS was successful in taking the promises that were written in old biblical texts thousands of years before and bringing them to life for a new generation. It was a marvelous combination of the old and the new.

One theory that the quoted LDS article uses is that all of these other people seeing visions etc. in the environment of JS was for the purpose of preparing the way for the restoration of the true church - that God might have had to set up an environment where young Joseph would have felt relatively comfortable going directly to God with his question and receiving an answer. Maybe God set up this environment so that the immediate family of JS would have been supportive and not dismiss his experience outright. Maybe God set up this environment to allow the church to grow and expand beyond the first few members because it was offering the very thing that they were looking for in the seeker movement.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
AmyJ
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Re: Visionary outpourings in early 1800

Post by AmyJ »

I have been thinking that Joseph Smith was a brilliant imaginative ideas synthesizer.

In a sense, he was a master print chip craftsman (one of many actually) able to line up a bunch of wooden letter stamps to print out an amazing document.

Unfortunately for him, the system that he lived in with wooden letter stamps and spacing has been through at least 2 evolutions and has been replaced by a) audio recordings (and cell phones), b) a keyboard (and internet), c) fax machines (and the postal system), d) Google Translate (and online communities), e) Genetics (and heritage collection stories).

The fact that there are still letters, ink, and words/concepts being communicated is pretty much is still in common between the communication evolutions. But his basic operating procedure and narrative - what he was using as his daily bread-and-butter is our historical exhibit that reminds us of part of our heritage and ancestry.
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