Judgement vs Acceptance

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
Minyan Man
Posts: 2276
Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Judgement vs Acceptance

Post by Minyan Man »

I've been thinking about these two words or actions or principles for a while now.
In the process of considering what the words mean, I try to consider how I practice them in my day-to-day life.
In addition, I try to understand how Jesus used these principles in his life & how he wants me to use them in
mine.

There seems to be so many divisions in our world today. Political, religious, racial, etc. Now for the reason for my
post. I have a relative who is in a gay relationship. They are not married. Recently, they called and want to visit us.
They asked if they could stay with us in our home. I have never had to make a decision like this before. We love them
very much. My first reaction was to talk it over with my Wife even though I know what her answer would be. We are
retired & don't have young children in our home. I'm not sure if it would make a difference or not.

Before I give you our decision, I want to ask what you would do in a similar situation. How would Jesus do in a similar
situation? What would be the lesson He would teach?
Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Judgement vs Acceptance

Post by Roy »

After talking to my spouse, I would talk to my relative about how they and their partner would feel most comfortable. If I have a space/guest bedroom then I would offer that to them but I would ask to make sure that this is what they might prefer.

I would do the same for a straight unmarried couple and even for a straight married couple (though with the marrieds, I might assume they prefer to sleep in the same bed).
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Minyan Man
Posts: 2276
Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Re: Judgement vs Acceptance

Post by Minyan Man »

I found this video on youtube. It is interesting how some members are struggling with church
policy. It makes me pause & reflect how I should be treating people we know & love that
living their lives that goes against church policy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqZ7GTe1kVo

This prompted me to reflect on people I know or knew that took their own life because they
were gay & still trying to be active in the church. If you're wondering, we did invite them to
stay with us. We had a wonderful, fulfilling & happy time. We will do it again regardless of a
church policy that seems to go against the choice we made. Maybe I'm interpreting the policy
wrong.
Roy
Posts: 7279
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Judgement vs Acceptance

Post by Roy »

In my effort to StayLDS, I use a strategy of compartmentalization. In this way, I separate how I feel about and try to treat my LGBTQ+ fellows and how I perceive that the church policy treats them. I hope that this distinction is noticed and understood by my LGBTQ+ fellows and that they don't feel uncomfortable around me because of my LDS affiliation.

I don't believe that I have ever made any covenant to treat LGBTQ+ individuals any differently than I would others.

I think many wrestle with how to treat people that are openly in an LGBTQ+ relationship because of the idea that these relationships are sin and only through eternal heterosexual marriage can a man and a woman become exalted. I think they feel that they foresee a danger of hellfire (or some other eternal punishment) ahead and that it is proper and loving to warn of that danger. They may even feel that those individuals need to be ostracized from the group/family to some degree lest other, more impressionable, children might be negatively influenced.

I get why many LDS struggle with this question on how best to treat openly practicing LGBTQ+ individuals.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Carburettor
Posts: 159
Joined: 10 Jul 2023, 01:49

Re: Judgement vs Acceptance

Post by Carburettor »

I joined this forum almost a year ago to air my concern that those who identify as LGBTQ+ can never truly find peace as active members of the LDS Church (viewtopic.php?t=10270). I believe it is impossible on account of the many historical statements that have never been disavowed, and because of practice, policy, and culture. It is something I have battled with for decades, and that battle will come to a head when President Nelson is replaced by DHO.

It's a similar issue to this thread because the black-and-white of it might easily lead us to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

One of my children went off to university, and, as my wife and I understood the situation, she was immersed in the YSA experience. Little by little, however, we learnt it wasn't her thing and that the YSAs weren't her people. Then she told us she had a non-member boyfriend. And the next step was that he became her partner while she was still living in student accommodation with her female friends.

Next came the issue of visiting our home with her boyfriend/partner. To us, it was the same complication of which you speak. This was our daughter for whom we had hoped for a temple marriage — and she wanted to bring her boyfriend to our home and share a bed with him because she said they were already sexually active. She said they wouldn't do anything under our roof — but for us it was the principle. We insisted he sleep in the lounge on account of our still having teenage children at home.

Fast-forward three years, and they live together. When they visit, we make up a double bed. Have our standards changed? No. Do we respect their right to make their own choices as they see fit? Absolutely, even though it took some adjustment. We taught our daughter our principles, and now she governs herself. And we love her just as much.

We had to accept that her adult choices were hers alone to make. She knows what we believe, and we expect her to be considerate of that. However, it is easier for everyone when we treat the two of them as a married couple — which is how they behave in every other way.

I'm sure there won't be many Church members who would welcome same-sex couples getting up to monkey business while visiting as guests because that would be a serious line-crossing for anyone in such a situation.

There is a marked difference between performing a gay wedding and attending one. May we all have the wisdom to see that.
Last edited by Carburettor on 28 May 2024, 06:20, edited 1 time in total.
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DarkJedi
Posts: 8134
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Judgement vs Acceptance

Post by DarkJedi »

Our experience was similar to Carburettor's. We knew our daughter was off the rails during her time at BYU, where she mostly just tried to not "get caught" (more common at BYU than one might imagine). After graduating and going to grad school at a different university she was much more open. We knew she slept with guys and we knew she had a steady boyfriend when the issue of visiting came up. At first DW was very opposed to him sleeping in the same room but we had other children coming as well and our house is not all that big. I was supportive of my wife but mostly indifferent. My wife went so far as to suggest perhaps he could stay with some nearby friends at which our daughter bristled and pretty much said if he's not welcome to stay here then they won't be coming. My wife relented, and all went well. Fast forward to present day and my daughter cohabitates with a different (and much better) guy and they regularly visit.

I think there are some more conservative members of the church who might believe acceptance is consent. In some ways that's true (we do consent to her current relationship, he's a great guy). I don't believe acceptance or loving someone in this way is necessarily condoning the behavior, and I think Jesus demonstrated this, notably with the forgiving of the adulterous woman.

I am reminded of the arguments against gay marriage before it was legalized. My state was one of the earlier ones to legalize gay marriage, years before it became was the law of the land. Families were going to disintegrate, taxes would rise, health insurance costs would increase, and heck the sun might not even rise. Well the next day after legalization the sun did rise. Families did not disintegrate. Taxes and health insurance costs did rise, but did they rise more than they would have anyway? Probably not, and if so it was negligible. The only thing that changed was all of the gay couples who were already living together could get married if they wanted (my state already offered work benefits such as health insurance to unmarried couples). My view of gay marriage essentially changed overnight.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Minyan Man
Posts: 2276
Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Re: Judgement vs Acceptance

Post by Minyan Man »

Our visitors went home on Monday. We had a wonderful time. You should understand (if you don't already) that I am
old. I grew up in the 50's & 60's. (That is 1950 & 1960.) Being attracted to the same sex was a very private & closeted
secret. We didn't see open relationships & didn't speak about them if we were related to a gay relative. So, when
our visitors came, we were more than nervous & I'm sure they could tell. In return, they seemed nervous about how we
would react. It didn't take long to break the ice and we were just 4 people trying to communicate & become acquainted.

It turns out that she grew up in the middle of Utah. I asked her what that experience was like as a non-member & she said
that it was difficult because she had nothing in common with her LDS neighbors. She went to the UofU and then went into the
Peace Corp. She now a teacher in SLC.

When my children were young, they were not active in the youth programs of the church. They preferred to socialize with
friends from other religious groups. They also participated in school activities & sports. As a result, I believe that they were
more well-rounded than other children at church. (That maybe too much of a generalization.)

I wish the church were more inclusive.
AmyJ
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Joined: 27 Jul 2017, 05:50

Re: Judgement vs Acceptance

Post by AmyJ »

Brene Brown has a quote, "I am not here to be Right, I am here to get it Right" that I have given a lot of thought to.

In this case, the "get it right (aka Acceptance)" aspect was "being a considerate host" and related questions of connection contrasted against the "be right (Judgement)" aspect of cultural norms from the 1950's and 1960's.

I am sincerely glad that all of you were able to "get it right" to connect through the anxiety and nervousness:)
Minyan Man
Posts: 2276
Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Re: Judgement vs Acceptance

Post by Minyan Man »

As I think about this experience, I find life to be very interesting. For example, in one of
my posts I said: "I wish the church were more inclusive". Yet, we send out missionaries to convert
people to the path we believe. Everything else is secondary. This can lead to a very closed society.
I don't think I want to live in a closed society anymore.

Amy, I always like what you have to say. I also like Brene Brown. I wasn't familiar with the quote you
posted. Thanks.
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nibbler
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Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Judgement vs Acceptance

Post by nibbler »

Minyan Man wrote: 26 May 2024, 14:54 There seems to be so many divisions in our world today. Political, religious, racial, etc. Now for the reason for my post. I have a relative who is in a gay relationship. They are not married. Recently, they called and want to visit us. They asked if they could stay with us in our home. I have never had to make a decision like this before. We love them very much. My first reaction was to talk it over with my Wife even though I know what her answer would be. We are retired & don't have young children in our home. I'm not sure if it would make a difference or not.
Minyan Man wrote: 26 May 2024, 21:22 This prompted me to reflect on people I know or knew that took their own life because they were gay & still trying to be active in the church. If you're wondering, we did invite them to stay with us. We had a wonderful, fulfilling & happy time. We will do it again regardless of a church policy that seems to go against the choice we made. Maybe I'm interpreting the policy wrong.
It's one thing to talk in hypotheticals but it's an entirely different thing to live out an actual situation where philosophizing transitions into reality.

For many people, inviting a gay couple into their homes (or even an unmarried heterosexual couple for that matter) can be a difficult decision. There are all kinds of reasons people could give to decide not to do it, but I'd like to give a reason for doing it.

Lasting effects.

One year down the road, two, five, ten, a lifetime down the road. What does the couple take with them into the future? What do they look back on and see? A family member that accepted them, or another source of feeling isolated and rejected?

MM, I'm glad you gave them a fond memory to look back on. That means a lot to me.
If you erase the mistakes of your past, you would also erase all the wisdom of your present. Remember the lesson, not the disappointment.
— I dunno
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