Just when it was all going so well

[DarkJedi]

What follows may be too long and self-indulgent for anyone to bother with, but it's cathartic to put it in writing.

Not at all.

I don't want to get all weird, but I was aware of nothing sexual going on in my early years. The message I learnt was that anything sexual was evil and forbidden. And I never questioned what I was taught.

My father was a bishop when I was born, and he was called as stake president when I was four. In hindsight, I'd say he was so invested in saving the ward and stake that he overlooked the emotional impacts of his absence on his family. Certainly on me.

At the age of four, I experienced my first "crush" if you will, and it had nothing to do with sex because I had no concept of what that was (and wouldn't have until my late teens). I can now see that I became fixated with replacement father figures who embodied everything I couldn't access in my own father. That sounds horribly creepy, sorry.

Decades later, I can logically accept how a craving for affirmative masculine validation while being on the receiving end of a punishing physical relationship with an older brother likely fermented into something entirely unhealthy. The layering of sexual interest (in the context of associating pleasure with the subject of one's strongest motivations) probably began to take shape only in my twenties as a logical development of unresolved emptiness.

No conscious choice was ever involved. I had no idea what the M-bomb was until my stake president asked me during my mission interview if I did it -- and then had to explain it to me. Oh, the horror!

Two opinions I'll offer. 1) The church has come around to the idea that LGBTQIA+ folks didn't choose to be "that way." I have believed this for a very long time. I never chose to be heterosexual, I am what I am, and I believe those are "hard wired." It is certainly not as some argue nature vs. nurture, rather it is some of both (with nature being the stronger of the two IMO). 2) Did you grow up in my ward? I know you didn't of course, but we have a guy in our ward who sounds as they he is very much like your father. With him it was and is always all church all the time (and believe me I am not exaggerating). His wife was essentially a single mom while he was off doing church work every waking minute he wasn't at his job - and now that he's retired that's every waking minute (the oldest of the children are now in their 40s, younger ones near 30). If he wasn't magnifying his calling (bishop, stake presidency, etc.) he was doing something for his home teaching families, doing family history (when you had to mostly go to the library), chasing down some long inactive member, or anything else that had to do with church. Family never came first. The current status of his now adult children reflects that neglect.

So that's the start. I was committed to never exploring anything immoral (as instructed), so a naive and submissive devotion to my faith prevented me from ever addressing the unhealthy attitudes that were developing without my consent to fill my longing for acceptance and validation.

Seriously? You didn't know about the M-word until you were 19? I believe you, I'm just flabbergasted and can't say I've ever met anyone who has said that before. Were you a late bloomer?

That's the background to a life of emotional confusion, anxiety, feelings of fraudulence and of being an imposter, followed by several professional interventions that were believed to be work-stress related, during which I relied on meds to mitigate the hopelessness of feeling that ending it all was the only way out.

Note: a request for sympathy is neither expressed nor implied. Since 2016, I have been able to largely unravel my angst. And that unravelling is what has brought me so much uncertainty in respect of the self-loathing I learnt from Church teachings, which, for at least 50 years, were focused on individuals "choosing" a path of perversion. I simply wanted to be normal.

I think this is all psychologically valid and somewhat common amongst church members - those who have experienced it and those who haven't.

I'll take a break at this point. I'm on vacation, and the day beckons.

By all means enjoy your holiday! Do come back though because I think your insight is valuable here.

[Carburettor]

Seriously? You didn't know about the M-word until you were 19? I believe you, I'm just flabbergasted and can't say I've ever met anyone who has said that before. Were you a late bloomer?

It is true, as unbelievable as it sounds. I was like Kimmy Schmidt in some respects. I don't wish to overstep the mark here by getting graphic, but I had no idea about human intercourse other than from still images in a biology class.

There's more. I have never viewed pornography -- other than in those scenarios when you're presented with something and you choose to look away.

So all the while I'm making conscious decisions to be clean and "unspotted" (as I understood it), yet I'm also experiencing infatuation after infatuation at the same time that isn't sexually motivated -- set against a backdrop of church literature that spoke unequivocally about homosexuality being perversion. That simply could not be me, I reasoned to myself, because I didn't even understand what I was supposed to have chosen. I had no real comprehension of the mechanics in the bedroom of a man and a woman let alone two men.

So I withdrew into my unhealthy denial, believing that God would someday straighten things out. Literally.

[DarkJedi]

Seems to fit the definition of asexual at least to some extent. I can't say I know enough about being asexual to really comment much about it.

I do believe you. And the porn thing is not at all a stretch. I think there are lots of people who don't look at porn and there are certainly people who have no interest in porn or who find it less than appealing.

I do believe God will sort everything out, or perhaps we'll do it ourselves based on what little we actually know about post-earth existence. I believe that in the Biblical sense justice is all about fairness, and I believe everything will be fair post earth. Earth life is unquestionably unfair/unjust.

[Roy]

One of my best friends is an LDS gay man married to a woman. His oldest son is my age and was the best man at my wedding. His wife baked the cake.

I did not know that he was gay when I was growing up with his boys. That is something that he confided in me more recently.

He is conflicted. He has a beautiful family that he loves dearly. He has strong resentment towards the church for pushing him towards a traditional marriage thinking that it could "fix" him. That has not been fair to him or his wife. Now, the church strongly advises against heterosexual marriage for gay members. The reality of how challenging those marriages were and are is just too jarring to ignore. But for a church that claims to speak for God, how could they get it so horribly wrong? And what do they offer as a solution now?

Anyway, I look forward to hearing more of your story. You are not alone.

[Carburettor]

There is a lot out there about "purity culture" and "Scrupulosity" from a religious standpoint that may be useful to you - there are even posts about the second topic on this site. Trauma does a number on sexuality too (especially for men - that is a growing field of data and information on that) - that might be a useful topic to explore in general.

Thank you, Amy! I have returned from my vacation (which was lovely), and I confess that my photo could sit comfortably in the dictionary beside the word "scrupulosity." I have never previously encountered this word, but it perfectly encompasses my childhood, adolescence, and a few more years after that. Thank you for enlightening me — and for also making me feel terrible about myself!

I don't know you, and I am female - so I might be off base. But at the end of the day, it seems that your soul is in conflict because what feels "normal" is also defined as "perverse" as defined by the church culture (and some teachings). I can relate to that conflict.

The word "normal" doesn't fit well for me in any context, but I understand your reasoning. I always felt "abnormal," and I somehow understood from the age of four that I must never put my feelings into words or even spend time dwelling on them. I was repeatedly taught in the home, classes, meetings, and conferences that such abnormality was of one's own choosing, and I believed the message that I could extricate myself from its clutches by consciously rejecting it.

I searched all the materials we had at home back in the 1970s for advice on how to fix myself — but the messages with the greatest impact were found in The Miracle of Forgiveness and Mormon Doctrine — and I was left squirming in discomfort and bewilderment. In terms of the "perverts" to which it referred, all I could think was, "That's not me! That can't be me! That will not be me!"

I subsequently served my entire full-time mission feeling dirty for something I had never done — but was somehow inexplicably drawn to — while, at the same time, being driven to despise by my quest to rid myself of all things unholy.

The final piece of my misfitting jigsaw puzzle was the 1995 article by Dallin H Oaks about "same gender attraction." It convinced me that normality was something within my grasp if I pursued it with singleness of mind. It was everything I longed for from a logical and gospel standpoint. I could be as straight as an arrow if I put my trust in God. So I reasoned that I should never question the matter further. Simply accept and become.

I believed that marriage could fix what was wrong with me — as directed by my patriarchal blessing — even if it required me to pretend to be someone else. So I did. And I ended up not knowing who I was. I even paid for two courses of hypnotherapy (first in my thirties and again in my forties) to banish the morbid thoughts that plagued me (while explaining to my wife that the treatment was to help me deal with work stress). And while my marriage continues to offer a veneer of acceptability and cosiness some 27 years later, I have always felt like an imposter. The way I love my wife is possibly similar to the way someone might display an overly touchy-feely love in a sibling relationship — perhaps even as a form of co-dependency (although I don't really understand how to properly use that term). And I did everything as an act of faith.

And then, in November 2016, I received a Church email saying the "mormon and gay" website had been updated — and all my frames of reference went out of the window. Everything I had learnt to pretend wasn't real was being written and talked about openly. How was that possible? Everything I had suppressed and denied for almost 50 years was there in black and white, couched in an entirely different we-don't-really-know narrative. So I have spent decades destroying my emotional and mental wellbeing for what, exactly?

[Carburettor]

Seems to fit the definition of asexual at least to some extent.

Sorry, I'm definitely not asexual. I experience unwanted attraction and "longing" (if that's an appropriate expression).

I do believe you. And the porn thing is not at all a stretch. I think there are lots of people who don't look at porn and there are certainly people who have no interest in porn or who find it less than appealing.

I was raised on a diet of mind over matter. I have never smoked a cigarette or anything similar. I have never intentionally drunk alcohol. I have always kept my language clean. I have never viewed porn. All these issues are part of my unhealthy "scrupulosity." Perhaps I sit somewhere on the autistic spectrum, but I function at a superficial level much like everyone else — except I have a massive rift in my sense of self that has brought only sadness. Never the feelings of "man is that he might have joy."

[AmyJ]

Thank you, Amy! I have returned from my vacation (which was lovely), and I confess that my photo could sit comfortably in the dictionary beside the word "scrupulosity." I have never previously encountered this word, but it perfectly encompasses my childhood, adolescence, and a few more years after that. Thank you for enlightening me — and for also making me feel terrible about myself!

I am glad that I could help. I can relate to the "making me feel terrible about myself" thought process too. But really, I have found it works better to "ground yourself" by taking things you learn about yourself and how you see the world as "coordinates" on a map (without judgement). If you see things as the metaphysical equivalent of X,Y coordinates on a map, it is easier to see different ways to get "get elsewhere" via CBT or other useful tools. It also makes it easier to not get "personally involved" in insisting that other people have to be where you are (or vice versa).

I don't know you, and I am female - so I might be off base. But at the end of the day, it seems that your soul is in conflict because what feels "normal" is also defined as "perverse" as defined by the church culture (and some teachings). I can relate to that conflict.

The word "normal" doesn't fit well for me in any context, but I understand your reasoning. I always felt "abnormal," and I somehow understood from the age of four that I must never put my feelings into words or even spend time dwelling on them. I was repeatedly taught in the home, classes, meetings, and conferences that such abnormality was of one's own choosing, and I believed the message that I could extricate myself from its clutches by consciously rejecting it.

I can see where that message was conveyed from our culture. Part of "scrupulosity" is "taking things the extra mile" to the point where it is overkill. Sometimes that is a lot of hedge laws, sometimes just being overly literal. The older I get, the more I realize that "what the leaders was trying to say" wasn't always "what they meant to say". On some levels, they put down the harsh law of "authority" because they were going to get ignored. They were using their words to aim for a specific target like the sun when in reality, they just wanted enough authority and momentum to get the velocity necessary to get to the moon.

I searched all the materials we had at home back in the 1970s for advice on how to fix myself — but the messages with the greatest impact were found in The Miracle of Forgiveness and Mormon Doctrine — and I was left squirming in discomfort and bewilderment. In terms of the "perverts" to which it referred, all I could think was, "That's not me! That can't be me! That will not be me!"

Maybe you were onto something?

I subsequently served my entire full-time mission feeling dirty for something I had never done — but was somehow inexplicably drawn to — while, at the same time, being driven to despise by my quest to rid myself of all things unholy.

The final piece of my mis-fitting jigsaw puzzle was the 1995 article by Dallin H Oaks about "same gender attraction." It convinced me that normality was something within my grasp if I pursued it with singleness of mind. It was everything I longed for from a logical and gospel standpoint. I could be as straight as an arrow if I put my trust in God. So I reasoned that I should never question the matter further. Simply accept and become.

I believed that marriage could fix what was wrong with me — as directed by my patriarchal blessing — even if it required me to pretend to be someone else. So I did. And I ended up not knowing who I was. I even paid for two courses of hypnotherapy (first in my thirties and again in my forties) to banish the morbid thoughts that plagued me (while explaining to my wife that the treatment was to help me deal with work stress). And while my marriage continues to offer a veneer of acceptability and cosiness some 27 years later, I have always felt like an imposter. The way I love my wife is possibly similar to the way someone might display an overly touchy-feely love in a sibling relationship — perhaps even as a form of co-dependency (although I don't really understand how to properly use that term). And I did everything as an act of faith.

And then, in November 2016, I received a Church email saying the "mormon and gay" website had been updated — and all my frames of reference went out of the window. Everything I had learnt to pretend wasn't real was being written and talked about openly. How was that possible? Everything I had suppressed and denied for almost 50 years was there in black and white, couched in an entirely different we-don't-really-know narrative. So I have spent decades destroying my emotional and mental wellbeing for what, exactly?

I don't have the answers, sorry. I suspect that eventually the question will go from "the cost of destroying emotional & mental wellbeing" to "what do I need to re-engineer my emotional & mental wellbeing". The only pointers I can recommend are learn about "scrupulosity" and it's ramifications. Learning about "Trauma and Sexuality" from actual experts may be useful as well. Even if you had a less than traumatic family life, it left you feeling like an imposter who had to go the extra mile, to put in a lot of hedge laws to stay "safe" - and while it "saved you" from some things, it sounds like it was traumatic to you, and you would be served by seeing yourself as a survivor of that. And to truly "learn" and process those things - that will take months to years.

[AmyJ]

Seems to fit the definition of asexual at least to some extent.

Sorry, I'm definitely not asexual. I experience unwanted attraction and "longing" (if that's an appropriate expression).

I do believe you. And the porn thing is not at all a stretch. I think there are lots of people who don't look at porn and there are certainly people who have no interest in porn or who find it less than appealing.

I was raised on a diet of mind over matter. I have never smoked a cigarette or anything similar. I have never intentionally drunk alcohol. I have always kept my language clean. I have never viewed porn. All these issues are part of my unhealthy "scrupulosity." Perhaps I sit somewhere on the autistic spectrum, but I function at a superficial level much like everyone else — except I have a massive rift in my sense of self that has brought only sadness. Never the feelings of "man is that he might have joy."

ASD is part of the current description we have for "people who wind up taking things very, very literally". Non-Verbal Learning Disorder is in some instances, a lighter version of this description. In any case, these mental descriptions don't necessarily have complete biological context yet - and are very, very subjective. Also people in this category are more prone to "trauma from literalism" then the average person because these individuals are the ones paying serious attention and taking concepts more seriously then the general population.

To quote Old-Timer, "May there be a path" to greater peace for you:)

[Carburettor]

The only pointers I can recommend are learn about "scrupulosity" and it's ramifications. Learning about "Trauma and Sexuality" from actual experts may be useful as well.

Amy, I love your insight and level-headedness. I hope you (and others) won't mind if I add another dimension to my complicated and most-likely boring personal story by sharing what has happened from 2016 to the present day, which leaves me pessimistic about what "experts" (both in and outside the Church) have to offer. Essentially, no one dares attempt to unravel sexuality these days on the basis that it may be considered conversion therapy. Plus, I don't live in Utah but the UK where I would be laughed out of a therapist's office for insisting that my faith is more important to me than my sexuality — even though the disconnect between the two has been strangling me for decades to the point where I have come close to ending everything (or simply contemplating it on fairly regular occasions as a means of escape), yet those recurring thoughts eventually percolate into anger that I should even find myself in such a position. It is surely messed up that a person's religious devotion should make them want to kill themselves. Am I wrong to believe that something isn't right for that to be the case?

In 21st-century western secular society, accepting oneself is what it's all about. However, that doesn't work for someone of faith in respect of complications relating to gender and identity. I fully accept that I may be barking up the wrong tree, hopelessly misguided, a wolf in sheep's clothing, or some other bad actor, but it is my sincere belief that it is currently impossible for someone like me to find peace. I'd like to explain what has brought me to this conclusion in the past few years so that maybe you or someone else can apply logic to point out where I'm going wrong. All I want is to experience joy in living the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I already know what is involved in doing all the "right" things. I can't now remember if I mentioned that I've been serving in stake priesthood leadership since 2019 after serving in ward and stake leadership since the 1980s (which is what you get for being a reliable member in the UK), so I would consider myself to be reasonably well informed in terms of being a faithful, committed, covenant-keeping member of the Church.

Before I share anything more, I wish to point out that I understand from the rules of this forum that I am forbidden from referring directly to individuals (alive or dead), which means I will need to be somewhat obscure about some material — but I can provide evidence offline if that helps. I simply wish to avoid being kicked off the forum. Unless I can talk through the obstacles to my continued activity in the Church, I feel doomed to become yet another tragic statistic.

Perhaps I should begin a new thread in the "Support" board. Something along the lines of "Can so-called LGBTQ+ individuals truly find peace in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?"

[Roy]

I would love to hear more about your journey and how the update to the Mormon and Gay website affected you.

I think it would be best to refer to individuals by their relationship to you. My wife, my bishop, my SP, my child etc. etc. You can refer to public figures as you already did with the 1995 article by Dallin H Oaks about "same gender attraction."

We certainly don't need "evidence." Your experience is your experience.

We function mostly as a support group and we are all supported and helped by hearing about the journey of others, what works and what doesn't in our attempt to StayLDS. We also mourn with each other for those things which we once loved but that cannot be maintained.

Lastly, I would avoid the term "so-called" because it seems pejorative and is often used with a mocking tone.