Anyone Here Still Follow John Dehlin Or Bill Reel

[Ilovechrist77]

I have a question for anyone here: Does anyone here still follow John Dehlin or Bill Reel? I'm only asking because I used to watch Mormon Stories and Mormon Discussions quite a bit, but, since they've gone in anti-Mormon or over-critical direction of the church for the most part, I hardly watch them now. Although I still agree with some of the points both shows talk about, they overly critical directions have been giving me bad vibes. So does anyone here watch any of their shows anymore?

[AmyJ]

Hi.
I half-followed John Dehlin for a while - but ultimately, his stuff wound up feeling more unhelpful to me and I didn't connect with it. I did follow Dan Witherspoon for a while too - but stopped eventually. I engage in other sites a bit, but just felt that I had less attention/resources to focus on those topics that they are focused on. The notes on this site and other internet conversations have been invaluable to me navigating a faith transition - and I am so grateful about that AND eventually it became easier to "move on" from specific topics for a bit.

[DarkJedi]

I also listened to Dehlin and Reel for a while but likewise became disenchanted as their stuff became more antagonistic. These days the Salt Lake Tribune's Mormonland is the only church related podcast I somewhat follow.

[Roy]

I wouldn't say that I ever followed John. I did listen to a few of his interviews especially when it was linked to a thread here. The interviews that I listened to weren't what I would call anti. They tended to be about peoples experiences of faith crisis and yes, eventually leaving the church.

I did listen to more of Bill Reel. That also coincided with his interviews/podcasts being discussed and linked in threads here. I was sad to see Bill get excommunicated but not surprised. I see patterns where people start out trying to help the disaffected and the church with the losing membership problem. The countless hours of listening to people that have been burned by the church eventually takes a toll. More than that, the church is suspicious of your "help" and you might get treated differently. It tends to push a helpful activist type person out the door.

Ironically, it was on Bill's podcast that his interviewee described this phenomenon as it applies to Faith Crisis. You start out with these rose colored glasses towards the church. You see much more positive than negative and the negative you do see is able to be justified in some way. People may start having more negative then positive experiences with the church or they may hear the negative experiences of others and live them in a vicarious way. Eventually this person tends to be suspicious of the church and its motives. Even positive steps are questioned and interrogated by the mind of the beholder. This is like wearing dark colored glasses and it skews one's perspective just as much as the rose colored glasses. Individuals that recognize this trend in themselves can attempt to create balance in the information that they expose themselves too.

For myself, I feel that the footprint that the church occupies in my mind is just smaller. Church used to be a big part of my life. During my faith crisis and for some time after, it was still a big part but I was reading and studying and discovering a new version of the church that I felt had been hidden before. Now, I think that I have achieved the balance. The church is an organization made up of people and almost all of them are doing what they think is right. I feel less inclined to invest my time in reading, learning, digesting church stuff - good or bad. I think that, in addition to the church footprint in my mind getting smaller, it has also gravitated away from the core of who I am. I am able to disassociate and be less inclined to take church stuff personally. As if to say, "Cool story, Bro."

Anyway, that's a long way to say that I am less interested in listening to podcasts relating to church matters than I have been in the past.

[AmyJ]

For myself, I feel that the footprint that the church occupies in my mind is just smaller. Church used to be a big part of my life. During my faith crisis and for some time after, it was still a big part but I was reading and studying and discovering a new version of the church that I felt had been hidden before. Now, I think that I have achieved the balance. The church is an organization made up of people and almost all of them are doing what they think is right. I feel less inclined to invest my time in reading, learning, digesting church stuff - good or bad. I think that, in addition to the church footprint in my mind getting smaller, it has also gravitated away from the core of who I am. I am able to disassociate and be less inclined to take church stuff personally. As if to say, "Cool story, Bro."

Anyway, that's a long way to say that I am less interested in listening to podcasts relating to church matters than I have been in the past.

I found this quote by Amos Oz:
"We have inherited a household of furniture from the Jewish past. We must now decide what will go into the attic, and what will go into the living room."

To me, it became even more useful when I re-phrase it slightly this way:
"I have inherited a household of furniture from the Mormon past/the Mormon culture. I must now decide what will go into the attic [Is not useful], and what will go into the living room [what I see and value every day from my Mormon past/my Mormon culture]."

In perfect honesty, a respectable amount of the values/processes/ways of doing things I was raised with didn't even make it to the attic - but were cleaned out in the spiritual spring cleaning that was the first part of my faith transition.

I am still sorting out what goes into the attic vs what gets put with the trash while living out of boxes in my metaphorical living room:)
I have been at it for a few years now, and I have reason to believe that I will be at it for a least a few more years (though the "boxes in the living room" are really, really important to me).

[nibbler]

My attention span doesn't do so well with podcasts but I'll watch one from time to time.

"Anti-Mormon" is in the eye of the beholder. I haven't heard enough podcasts from either to make an honest judgment but my drive-by judgement based on limited exposure...

Dehlin: His podcasts seem to be more focused on processing the emotions that result from a faith crisis. When that's the subject, reasons for a faith crisis will be shared again and again with each new person being interviewed. A part of healing from a traumatic experience is getting validation. By nature he does a lot of validation of people's experiences. If you interview a lot of people that ended up leaving the church, you end up validating many reasons for people to leave the church. Is that anti-Mormon?

Now, he could temper some of that by interviewing more people that have had a faith crisis and decided to stay or by interviewing orthodox people for their perspectives on the issues (and keeping the focus on validating their experiences). Maybe people in those camps don't need as much support as the people that just can't make it work. I know when I was first starting out I felt completely alone, maybe that's one purpose of Mormon Stories, helping people recognize they aren't alone. The more orthodox mindset gets validated every single Sunday and the experiences of a person experiencing a faith crisis are often invalidated every single Sunday. It's good that Mormon Stories is a place for people to get some validation in their experiences.

I will say that I think Dehlin does have a tendency to "lead the witness." Quite often, very often in fact, it feels like Dehlin is putting words in people's mouths instead of letting them tell their story and usually when he does it, he's pushing them towards the narrative he wants to tell. I try to think what it would be like if I were on Mormon Stories. My biggest fear would be losing control of my own narrative. Being made to look like I have an opinion that I don't really hold or an opinion that is much more nuanced than the direction Dehlin was steering me.

Reel: His podcasts (with Radio Free Mormon) seem to be more focused on meticulously proving specific Mormon truth claims false. RFM really tries to spell it out for people with repetition of simple, easily digestible pieces to help the listener arrive at a conclusion. He's a lawyer by trade...

I think they could gain some balance by picking a Mormon narrative or truth claim where a deep analysis showed that the story was mostly on the up-and-up. Maybe you can't really prove a truth claim but there's got to be a story out there that's good for more than just showing how a claim is false.

But they obviously can do what they want. Neither one of those guys has to strike a balance. That and one man's balance is another man's anti-Mormon (or orthodoxy for that matter).

[nibbler]

I see patterns where people start out trying to help the disaffected and the church with the losing membership problem. The countless hours of listening to people that have been burned by the church eventually takes a toll. More than that, the church is suspicious of your "help" and you might get treated differently. It tends to push a helpful activist type person out the door.

I've seen many orthodox members try to second guess people's motivations. It's an almost instinctual or reflexive response. The reaction to the CES letter is an extreme example of this phenomenon but it plays out all the time. When someone has questions they're not seen as being genuine, they're perceived as mounting a backhanded or veiled attack.

It can be very damaging when your genuine questions are interpreted as attacks by the very community that you went to for help. It can be the first "break" you experience with your tribe.

And I suppose you gave the mirror image of that phenomenon.

Eventually this person tends to be suspicious of the church and its motives. Even positive steps are questioned and interrogated by the mind of the beholder.

Guessing motives.

I like to believe that everyone is doing the best they can with what they've got to work with. Church leaders and critics alike.

[Roy]

And I suppose you gave the mirror image of that phenomenon.

Right. The church has been burned by questioners and questioners have been burned by the church. Both are suspicious of the other.

In my effort to StayLDS, I try to give the benefit of the doubt. My family has probably been talked about in ward council but that doesn't mean that it happens often or that every visit or invitation from missionaries and ward members is part of a coordinated effort. Someone could honestly want to get to know us better.

On the other side of this, sometimes some people at church are more standoffish than I would like. My bishop is like this. I can pass him in the hallway and he doesn't acknowledge me or say "Hi." I could interpret this to his being offended by my lower church activity and feeling too aloof to do pleasantries. However, the truth is probably that he just has a lot on his mind and he does not have a warm personality.

I could question motives when people are overly friendly or question motives when people are not friendly enough. For my effort to StayLDS, I try to give others the benefit of the doubt AND be somewhat detached (IOW even if someone did do something to make it clear that they thought less of me, I am trying to build up a thick shell against what fellow members might think of me).

[Old-Timer]

I do not. They aren't geared toward active members like me.

[Ilovechrist77]

Thank you, everyone, for the comments. It just gets hard for me after awhile to be bombarded almost constantly with hearing stories from Mormon Stories about people resigning from the church or being excommunicated from it and hearing Bill Reel picking apart so much of church doctrine just to prove Mormonism isn't true.

Roy, I agree completely. The church and questioners both have been burned pretty badly. Leadership roulette from the top to bottom either makes these things better or worse when it comes to this. More often than not, it seems to make it worse. I just wish we better ways within the church system to makes better. I know there's sustaining and not sustaining people in the church, but in too many cases not sustaining is take seriously when it comes to not sustaining the brethren. Especially cases where there might some serious corruption in the system that needs to be arrested.

Well, through a lot of this, prayer and practicing meditation daily has helped me and is continuing to help me be patient and find peace through all this.