Modifying My View of Abraham and Isaac

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Old-Timer
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Modifying My View of Abraham and Isaac

Post by Old-Timer »

I have been in a private conversation with a friend about my favorite version of the story of Abraham being commanded to sacrifice Isaac, and that conversation helped me see it in a slightly different light. I really like the modified view and want to share it:

First, the original story could be actual or allegorical. Particularly in the OT, that is an important distinction. For the purpose of my interpretation, it can be either.

Second, someone can fail a test and still learn from it. In fact, greater understanding often comes from failure than from success. I know that well from my time as a teacher and educator. I also can apply this principle to faith crises: Many people come to believe they have succeeded in defining their own, personal, individual beliefs and faith ONLY after "failing" within the general, stereotypical framework that works for many people.

Third, if the point of Abraham's experience was to find someone who would put an end to child sacrifice to the one, true God, then Abraham and his descendants actually, in practical terms, passed that test - even if Abraham would have failed the test if the angel hadn't stopped him. I have never had that thought, and I like it.

Perhaps I need to stop saying Abraham failed the test and say instead that Abraham had to learn the nature of the test - and that it took God intervening to keep him from failing. I like that explanation better, since it allows more grace in my view of Abraham, God, and the story itself.

Moral of the story: Perhaps the issue isn't reflexively obeying or disobeying. Maybe the issue is being willing to change one's mind with "further light and knowledge" - no matter the source of that enlightenment. Maybe the idea is that discontinuing incorrect traditions is difficult, especially if they are framed as divine commandments - and even if you have been "saved" in the past from them. Maybe the idea is that we aren't condemned for not being able to let go of our past easily - that it's okay to struggle in that process and hang on to some things longer than we would like.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Watcher
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Re: Modifying My View of Abraham and Isaac

Post by Watcher »

I have pondered if the epoch we have in scripture is missing some critical elements. Instead of being a young lad – Isaac was a young man, say in his early 30’s. That the place called Moriah was where Jerusalem would later stand. That the exact place at Moriah would later come to be called Golgotha. That Isaac knew in advance that he would be the sacrificial lamb and in response (according to some ancient Jewish teachings) – that Isaac was willing and expressed that he would sacrifice himself in honor of Abraham but even more so, in honor of G-d. In other words the epoch is not just about Abraham and Isaac as it is about our Father in Heaven and his Son, Jesus the Christ and the real meaning (purpose) of human sacrifice.
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Re: Modifying My View of Abraham and Isaac

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That is a solid understanding in hindsight by Christians invested in seeing a type for Jesus - and it might be accurate. I appreciate that view for what it can bring to many people.

I am much more interested, personally, in looking at it from the perspective of the time and what it meant to the Israelite people then and in the future, including ALL of the Abrahamic people, including Islam. For that reason, my favorite interpretation is that the ONLY way Abraham could let go of human sacrifice was to believe he had been told to do it, attempt to do it, be stopped from doing it, and be told his people never should do it again. It also allows me to believe we need to question what we believe God is telling us to do if it goes directly against our core moral principles.

(Of note: According to the record, it was NOT "the God of Abraham" who commanded human sacrifice; it was the God of Abraham's ancestry. I think that is an important point that gets overlooked nearly always.)

Finally, there are multiple interpretations of the concept of redemption/salvation/Atonement in Christian history - and in our own hymn book. (Literally, the Atonement is described in different ways that fit with different Atonement theories in our hymnbook.) The divine sacrifice model doesn't resonate with me - and I say that knowing what I am about to say is heretical to many people.

Jesus dying on the cross and being resurrected isn't the crowning moment of Mormon theology; it just is the way the Romans killed him. That part (being killed by humans) doesn't have to be part of the Atonement. He could have overcome death no matter how he died. Therefore, I don't need to interpret the story of Abraham and Isaac the traditional way to value it as a story with an important message - and it allows me to interpret it in a way that avoids the all too common message that even murder is fine if I believe God is commanding me to do it.

That result is important to me, even if it isn't for most other Christians.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Roy
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Re: Modifying My View of Abraham and Isaac

Post by Roy »

I would like to hear more about the divine sacrifice model (and possible alternatives). Is the divine sacrifice model where the crucifixion of Jesus paid the price for our sins?
Help me to understand another model. Would it have been possible for Jesus to have experienced all of humanities sins, pains, infirmities, and sorrows in the garden and that this experience was sufficient for Jesus to be able to overcome/forgive sin? I am fascinated by this possibility.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Old-Timer
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Re: Modifying My View of Abraham and Isaac

Post by Old-Timer »

The following link is to a summary of my Sunday School lesson about Atonement theories 8.5 years ago:

viewtopic.php?p=71618&hilit=Atonement+theory#p71618

This one is the summary of the lesson about how the Atonement is taught in our hymns:

viewtopic.php?p=72824#p72824

My own personal favorite is the Moral Influence Model - the dominant view of the first centuries after Jesus' death.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Roy
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Re: Modifying My View of Abraham and Isaac

Post by Roy »

Thank you OT.

As a missionary, I had been introduced to Cleon Skousen's "Intelligence Theory." Like so many things in Mormonism it was presented as the one true understanding of the Atonement. I received a copy of a talk that Bro. Skousen had given on the topic. It was clear that it was a copy of a copy of a copy and that the original transcribing instrument had been a typewriter (I served in 2000 so a typewriter was already antiquated). It would seem that this talk was originally given to a group of missionaries in Texas in 1980 though I did not know that at the time.

Missionary culture in my mission was perfect for this type of theory to flourish. It was presented as somewhat secret knowledge that was available to any that searched the scriptures diligently and also would have been passed down from individual to individual and must "surely" have started with JS.

I found a summary of this Intelligence Theory here https://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2011 ... atonement/

Comparing Bro. Skousen's theory to the theories listed by OT, I think it most closely resembles the satisfaction theory because the intelligences represent the kingdom of laws that had been dishonored by the humans' disobedient behavior.

Old-Timer, your Sunday school lesson had the following suggestions for further reading:
Hugh Nibley’s “The Meaning of the Atonement"
Blake Ostler’s “Com-passion Theory"
Eugene England’s “Shakespeare and the At-One-ment of Christ”
Margaret Barker’s “Atonement: The Rite of Healing”
Truman Madsen’s “The Olive Press”
Rene Girard’s “I See Satan Fall Like Lightning”
Was Bro. Skousen's theory/talk intentionally left off the list? What was/is your feeling and thought process towards Bro. Skousen's theory?
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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nibbler
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Re: Modifying My View of Abraham and Isaac

Post by nibbler »

A modern telling of the story in the LDS context could be a father that wants to disown their son when they come out as gay (or leave the church) and eventually learning the lesson to not sacrifice family relationships at the alter because of religious beliefs.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
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Roy
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Re: Modifying My View of Abraham and Isaac

Post by Roy »

nibbler wrote: 25 Oct 2022, 10:29 A modern telling of the story in the LDS context could be a father that wants to disown their son when they come out as gay (or leave the church) and eventually learning the lesson to not sacrifice family relationships at the alter because of religious beliefs.
Wow!
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Old-Timer
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Re: Modifying My View of Abraham and Isaac

Post by Old-Timer »

Roy, Madsen never appealed to me after a reading of something he wrote, so I never followed up on his description of the Atonement.

nibbler, that would be a good example, particularly with the current admonitions not to disown family or friends due to sexual orientation. In that sense, the change could be seen as an example of societal pressure and/or a leader or leaders hearing the voice of God telling them, "Stop it!"
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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DarkJedi
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Re: Modifying My View of Abraham and Isaac

Post by DarkJedi »

As I've read through this thread I am reminded of a main theme in The Bible With And Without Jesus (by Amy-Jill Levine & Marc Zvi Brettler) I read in the last year or so. One of the main themes is that Christians have tended to retrofit many OT scriptures to make them fit the Messianic viewpoint when Jews contemporary to when the stories actually took place (and later) do not make the same Messianic connection. The story of Abraham and Isaac fits this scenario and Jews see that story somewhat differently than Christians do, and especially the Mormon Christian viewpoint.

That was the point I wanted to make, but I think it does need some further context. The book's title contains and not or. Varying Jewish and Christian viewpoints can all be correct, scripture doesn't necessarily have just one meaning. Isaiah may well have been only writing about current or shortly-to-come events, and may have only understood what he was writing as such. He also may have been writing of a coming Messiah and may or may not have understood what he was writing in that context (keeping in mind the ancient Hebrew view of the Messiah was the same as the modern Christian view/understanding). I may not see the story of Abraham exactly the same way Old Timer does, but that doesn't mean either of us (or both of us) are wrong.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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