An Epiphany about The Degrees of Glory

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Old-Timer
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An Epiphany about The Degrees of Glory

Post by Old-Timer »

I had an epiphany today, while driving to get auto work done, ironically, about why I love the concept of degrees of glory - even though I dislike how they are presented and explained so often. Here is how I see the core concept:

We are not punished for Adam’s transgression. This means everything we inherit as a result of being born into a fallen world carries NO punishment. Anything that might be done as “justice” for our actions caused by things we didn’t choose consciously is addressed by the Atonement, which means we are “saved” from the “natural” consequences of our less than ideal choices, as long as we are trying to change (“repent”) and continuing in our efforts (“enduring to the end”). We are free to try - and to be rewarded for our efforts, no matter the actual results.

With this framing, people generally can be categorized into three groups: those who actively choose to fight what they know they should do (Telestial); those who float along without real effort (Terrestrial); and those who try to do what they believe they are supposed to do (Celestial). There also is a very small group who understand clearly who is in authority and that the authority is legitimate and that the authority is being used correctly but consciously choose to fight it (Sons of Perdition).

For me, the key is that we humans generally have no clue who is in which category - so that “judgment” is left to a God who knows perfectly (completely, fully, and fully-developed) AND loves perfectly (with long-suffering, kindness, lack of criticism, etc.).

I also believe in eternal progression, so I see the degrees as representing a path each person walks until they personally are done.

With this framework, bolstered by decades working with under-privileged and mentally unhealthy people, I am convinced of two core beliefs:

1) The VAST majority of people are doing the best they can and will end up “higher” than they and we and others “naturally” would assume;

2) The final totals in each kingdom will be highest (by a HUGE margin) in the Celestial kingdom and smaller as the kingdoms “descend” in glory.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Roy
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Re: An Epiphany about The Degrees of Glory

Post by Roy »

beautiful!
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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SilentDawning
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Re: An Epiphany about The Degrees of Glory

Post by SilentDawning »

I sure hope you're right Old-Timer. I'm hoping there will be compensation or allowance for some of the trauma I've experienced in the church, and the interaction of such trauma with my personality. I'm not this way entirely by choice. I did try to be strong and to continue serving as a TBM Mormon after the events that happened to me -- three times. Three times I overcame the nasty treatment, to go on and serve in high-effort callings in the church and hold a TR. I remember thinking at one point that it doesn't seem to be much of a recipe for happiness for this life in the church to be an exercise in how much dirt you can put up with.

I have proven NOT to have a hardy personality when it comes to bad treatment from others/leaders in the church, and it would seem to be inauthentic now, for me to be a TBM Mormon. I hope God will somehow recognize this. As well as a major reason I am not active -- the fact that the church has such massive truth claims, expects a lot from us, seems to encourage idealism through the miraculous scriptures and stories at church, but seems not to support many of us (in my case, me) when the chips are down. And I'm not talking about financial support either.

Fingers crossed, because according to the traditional interpretation of my behavior on earth, I'm not going to be in the celestial kingdom, and I question if I'll even be in the terrestrial.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
Watcher
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Joined: 12 Jul 2022, 08:39

Re: An Epiphany about The Degrees of Glory

Post by Watcher »

Old-Timer wrote: 01 Oct 2022, 10:06 I had an epiphany today, while driving to get auto work done, ironically, about why I love the concept of degrees of glory - even though I dislike how they are presented and explained so often. Here is how I see the core concept:

We are not punished for Adam’s transgression. This means everything we inherit as a result of being born into a fallen world carries NO punishment. Anything that might be done as “justice” for our actions caused by things we didn’t choose consciously is addressed by the Atonement, which means we are “saved” from the “natural” consequences of our less than ideal choices, as long as we are trying to change (“repent”) and continuing in our efforts (“enduring to the end”). We are free to try - and to be rewarded for our efforts, no matter the actual results.

With this framing, people generally can be categorized into three groups: those who actively choose to fight what they know they should do (Telestial); those who float along without real effort (Terrestrial); and those who try to do what they believe they are supposed to do (Celestial). There also is a very small group who understand clearly who is in authority and that the authority is legitimate and that the authority is being used correctly but consciously choose to fight it (Sons of Perdition).

For me, the key is that we humans generally have no clue who is in which category - so that “judgment” is left to a God who knows perfectly (completely, fully, and fully-developed) AND loves perfectly (with long-suffering, kindness, lack of criticism, etc.).

I also believe in eternal progression, so I see the degrees as representing a path each person walks until they personally are done.

With this framework, bolstered by decades working with under-privileged and mentally unhealthy people, I am convinced of two core beliefs:

1) The VAST majority of people are doing the best they can and will end up “higher” than they and we and others “naturally” would assume;

2) The final totals in each kingdom will be highest (by a HUGE margin) in the Celestial kingdom and smaller as the kingdoms “descend” in glory.
I like your thinking. If I may, I would add some thoughts. The first thought is about agency. I am thinking that agency means that nothing is forced upon anyone – in the end it is or was always their choice. Choices have consequences but this means that we exercise agency as we choose our consequences. As I am thinking about this, I must be careful not to make this post excessively long.

Because of the principle of agency – I speculate that the fall included our choice in the pre-existence to take part with Adam and Eve in the fall. It is interesting to me that the name “Adam” in the ancient Hebrew meant “mankind”; likewise, Eve meant “the mother of all living”. I speculate that because of the principle of agency, everything we experience in this mortal life is a result of our exercise of agency. Before going farther, I am impressed to make a very important point to not judge anything in this life – that we do not choose in this life – as being a sin or a result or consequence of sin. More along the line of a responsibility or burden we are willing to experience or carry in mortality for reasons we may not understand -- Yet. I could suggest some of my ideas but the problem with this is that such ideas may fit with the scenarios of how I see my life and not so much for others.

This gets me to my next and final thought for now on this subject. As we read and study the gospel principles of the plan of salvation it is my understanding that the explanations of the various glories of the resurrection is not so we can point to others and condemn or judge them worthy or not worthy of whatever glory. Rather these explanations are given as a warning to us as individuals not to become attached so much to certain things that we will be willing to exercise our agency for the pleasures of lower glories over the intelligence and exaltations of higher glories. In other words, for example, if we come to desire adultery over the discipline of chastity, we will likely end up choosing the telestial glory as the final judgement or final expression of our agency. The point here is that no one has the right to express anyone else’s agency. And as I understand – not even G-d intends to supplant the agency of others and force them to choose what he would.

It is my belief that we will tell G-d what glory we will be resurrected to based on the true desires of our hearts – not the other way around (as all other religions seem to infer – that G-d, gods or karma will judge such things for themself or itself and force such will upon us and that we will therefore not choose heaven or hell.) I speculate that such thinking come from Satan that intends to destroy agency and not the G-d that grants to each their agency.
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