I disagree with the word "Psychopathic." It has all sorts of negative connotations and approaches name calling (that is against StayLDS guidelines). However I do understand where you are coming from. DW and I recoiled at the idea that G-d was trying to teach us something from having a stillborn child because of the implication that G-d might have used less extreme measures if only we were less hard hearted. I think that this thought springs from the assumption that everything that exists (including experiences), is also somehow necessary.PazamaManX wrote: ↑31 Aug 2022, 09:51 In a similar vein, hearing comments at church where people say things like, "I always ask myself, 'What can I learn from this trial?' or 'What is Heavenly Father trying to teach me?'.", has always bothered me. Trying to have a detached view of trials may help with smaller stuff. But, I doubt anyone can do that at the death bed of loved one. The ability to do that would be psychopathic.
Purpose of mortal life
Re: Purpose of mortal life
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
- PazamaManX
- Posts: 198
- Joined: 24 Nov 2018, 03:21
Re: Purpose of mortal life
Name calling is far from what I was trying to do. My mention of it was just referring to the disconnect that can go along with psychopathy. I wasn't saying that anyone who asks questions like that or tries to do so in a traumatic situation is a psychopath(I hope that was obvious).
But, I can see how someone might find offense in how that was worded.
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness, even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." ~ Thomas Jefferson
Re: Purpose of mortal life
At the risk of repeating what some others have already said, I had originally intended to quote and comment but I think just adding my comments (repetitive or not) might be more concise.
There is no question almost all of us suffer (the argument could be made an infant who died shortly after birth without a serious defect might not have suffered). The thing that has always struck me is that some of us suffer way more than others. And that suffering isn't only or always always physical, it can be mental and/or spiritual. Some suffering could be brought on by ourselves, but other suffering seems to be random and sadly some is inflicted by others (sometimes purposely). There seems to be no justice (fairness, equality or equity) in that. That said, I do hold hope that there is justice, mercy and grace in the next life and that the atonement of Jesus Christ will heal all unfairness. While I think/believe/hope the latter is true, I don't necessarily agree that suffering is as a matter of course why we're here. I concede that we do all die, and that death is a part of the plan.
The thought of "learning to enjoy" our suffering and trials is not appealing. Sort of like what your wife said Watcher, I don't think we're supposed to enjoy those things (maybe not for the same reasons she does) and I don't think I'm capable of enjoying some of my trials. For example, I have not enjoyed my faith crisis and have no desire to find joy in it - it has nevertheless benefitted me in some ways in the long run. My faith crisis has not benefitted the church. Like PanamaManX I am dubious of those comments I hear sometimes at church.
And I do agree with Nibbler. I believe we are all on the same path, yet the path is different for each of us. We are all together yet we are each alone.
There is no question almost all of us suffer (the argument could be made an infant who died shortly after birth without a serious defect might not have suffered). The thing that has always struck me is that some of us suffer way more than others. And that suffering isn't only or always always physical, it can be mental and/or spiritual. Some suffering could be brought on by ourselves, but other suffering seems to be random and sadly some is inflicted by others (sometimes purposely). There seems to be no justice (fairness, equality or equity) in that. That said, I do hold hope that there is justice, mercy and grace in the next life and that the atonement of Jesus Christ will heal all unfairness. While I think/believe/hope the latter is true, I don't necessarily agree that suffering is as a matter of course why we're here. I concede that we do all die, and that death is a part of the plan.
The thought of "learning to enjoy" our suffering and trials is not appealing. Sort of like what your wife said Watcher, I don't think we're supposed to enjoy those things (maybe not for the same reasons she does) and I don't think I'm capable of enjoying some of my trials. For example, I have not enjoyed my faith crisis and have no desire to find joy in it - it has nevertheless benefitted me in some ways in the long run. My faith crisis has not benefitted the church. Like PanamaManX I am dubious of those comments I hear sometimes at church.
And I do agree with Nibbler. I believe we are all on the same path, yet the path is different for each of us. We are all together yet we are each alone.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Re: Purpose of mortal life
This presupposes that there is an "overarching purpose" for morality for us as individuals - which I don't necessarily buy.
What if "mortality" is like when a parent takes their kids to the park because the house is too small for the kids and the parent's temper to co-exist - and the kids wind up in the sandbox under the parent's observation (within eye sight)?
Child development experts are really exited about providing mediums for children to experience different things and create different things from them. Brene Brown says (basically) that in order for something to be meaningful (full of meaning), it needs to be transferred from the head to the heart through the hands.
What if the primary purpose of life is to "create" something for us and about us in our corner of the sandbox for as long as we are here?
What if "mortality" is like when a parent takes their kids to the park because the house is too small for the kids and the parent's temper to co-exist - and the kids wind up in the sandbox under the parent's observation (within eye sight)?
Child development experts are really exited about providing mediums for children to experience different things and create different things from them. Brene Brown says (basically) that in order for something to be meaningful (full of meaning), it needs to be transferred from the head to the heart through the hands.
What if the primary purpose of life is to "create" something for us and about us in our corner of the sandbox for as long as we are here?
Re: Purpose of mortal life
Building upon you sandbox metaphor...
I am thinking of the malleability and impermanence of sand.
I am reminded of children building a structure out of blocks and knowing that it will be time to clean up soon and asking me to take a picture of their creation before taking it down. They know that it cannot last, but the picture provides proof that it was here and that they created it.
I am thinking of the malleability and impermanence of sand.
I am reminded of children building a structure out of blocks and knowing that it will be time to clean up soon and asking me to take a picture of their creation before taking it down. They know that it cannot last, but the picture provides proof that it was here and that they created it.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Re: Purpose of mortal life
Looking at suffering as a good thing is either a privilege of those who suffer less than others or a coping skill to keep from shattering.
I know people who have suffered horribly. It broke some of them, in multiple, terrible ways. There was nothing redemptive in it.
So, in summary: Everything is what we make of it - but we don't all have the ability to choose what we make of it - and, sometimes, it makes of us what we don't want to become.
This is a primary reason I believe so deeply in grace.
I know people who have suffered horribly. It broke some of them, in multiple, terrible ways. There was nothing redemptive in it.
So, in summary: Everything is what we make of it - but we don't all have the ability to choose what we make of it - and, sometimes, it makes of us what we don't want to become.
This is a primary reason I believe so deeply in grace.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: Purpose of mortal life
I thought to pose a question for the forum and I determined that your post may be the best to use. I hope that you do not think I am picking on you – this is not my intent. It seems to me that most posters on this forum are quite resistant to suffering as both necessary and a divinely inspired benefit for our mortal experience. Thus, my question is not just to you but the forum. My question is not just a single question but rather a series of loaded questions. Please allow me to begin:Old-Timer wrote: ↑01 Sep 2022, 17:34 Looking at suffering as a good thing is either a privilege of those who suffer less than others or a coping skill to keep from shattering.
I know people who have suffered horribly. It broke some of them, in multiple, terrible ways. There was nothing redemptive in it.
So, in summary: Everything is what we make of it - but we don't all have the ability to choose what we make of it - and, sometimes, it makes of us what we don't want to become.
This is a primary reason I believe so deeply in grace.
1. Is the Plan of Salvation given of G-d?
2. Is the fall of Man a necessary element of the divinely created Plan of Salvation? (The obvious option is that if the fall is not necessary then the Plan of Salvation has a serious flaw – which implies that G-d and his plan for mankind is flawed)
3. Is it possible that man could fall from the grace of G-d and his Kingdom of heaven and not experience suffering? (Granted that grace is restored via the Atonement of Christ but we have many historical accounts of both ancient and modern Saints that suffered many seemingly unreasonable inflictions of pain – including physical, mental, spiritual and emotional)
Are we not told in scripture that during our mortal experience that we ought to have faith and be believing and all things will turn out for our good? Please note that there is not an exception given for any act of suffering regardless of the seeming uselessness of it.
And so, my final question is – should we not have joy (or be able to find joy) in encountering that which will turn out for our good and benefit? Could the reason that joy is not experience because of lack of faith and believing? Is it possible that finding joy is greatly different than having fun or being amused?
Re: Purpose of mortal life
Way too many questions of very different topics for one post. If you want to discuss these questions, it would be better to have a focused discussion for each one.
Also, if the purpose is to try to preach a particular view or just a mental exercise with doctrines as the foundation, this is not the right forum. This is a support group, not primarily a place merely to discuss or debate doctrine. Doctrinal discussions occur, but it should be in the context of our mission.
Also, if the purpose is to try to preach a particular view or just a mental exercise with doctrines as the foundation, this is not the right forum. This is a support group, not primarily a place merely to discuss or debate doctrine. Doctrinal discussions occur, but it should be in the context of our mission.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: Purpose of mortal life
When I am reunited with my Heavenly Parents I believe that They will cry with me for the pain and suffering that I experienced while on earth.
It doesn't matter that the pain was temporary or that the losses will be recovered in the next life. The pain is real and should not be dismissed or minimized.
Tears can be healing. Once we have a good cry together then I can feel known and understood. That is an important first step for me.
There are scriptures that could be used to bolster my feeling but ultimately my approach rests upon what feels right to me. I respect that others may have different ideas and different feelings.
It doesn't matter that the pain was temporary or that the losses will be recovered in the next life. The pain is real and should not be dismissed or minimized.
Tears can be healing. Once we have a good cry together then I can feel known and understood. That is an important first step for me.
There are scriptures that could be used to bolster my feeling but ultimately my approach rests upon what feels right to me. I respect that others may have different ideas and different feelings.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Re: Purpose of mortal life
I agree with Old Timer here Watcher. By your own admission your questions are loaded, and clearly designed to bring us to one answer - your point of view. The flaw is that some of your questions could have different answers than what is taught in Sunday School. For example, I don't necessarily believe we're fallen from grace and that's not the meaning of the fall of Adam. Either way, I believe the so called fall was necessary and planned and part of what we all knew and agreed to in the premortal council, and it was not a horrible tragedy.Old-Timer wrote: ↑02 Sep 2022, 22:00 Also, if the purpose is to try to preach a particular view or just a mental exercise with doctrines as the foundation, this is not the right forum. This is a support group, not primarily a place merely to discuss or debate doctrine. Doctrinal discussions occur, but it should be in the context of our mission.
That said I also agree with Roy. I hope and believe my reunion with my Heavenly Parents will be a wondrous event beyond mortal description. The God who weeps does so not because we have offended God with sin but because of that which we have had to endure.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction