What is Heaven?

For the discussion of spirituality -- from LDS and non-LDS sources
Old-Timer
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Re: What is Heaven?

Post by Old-Timer »

Overall, I believe Heaven, Hell, Kingdoms of Glory, etc. is the eternal extension of who we strive to become - if individual life exists after death. I am not sure I believe in it or not, but I hope for it, so I live with that hope as a guide. I also believe in the concept of enacting Heaven on Earth - of stiving to be heavenly human - of working to become now what we want to be then.

1. Do you believe there are laws (rules) in heaven? If so, are there punishments for breaking them?

No. I hope for a final destination where rules and punishments are not necessary. We simply are good for goodness sake.

2. Do you believe there is justice in heaven?

Depends on how that is defined. I hope for grace and mercy, not justice.

3. Will all individuals be alike, or will there be differences in eye color, hair color, skin color or other physical or spiritual attributes? Will some be more glorious than others? Why or why not?

No idea, and don't care - except for the question of glory. I see the kingdoms of glory as general descriptions of a growth process, so I don't believe in glory gradations in Heaven. Having said that, I DESPISE the idea that "God" is any particular race or has any particular hair color or is tall and chiseled or any other assumption based on moral prejudices. I mean that; it is despicable to me.

4. Will there be an order or hierarchy – will some be more responsible than others?

Nope. That is my hope.

5. What do you plan to do? Will you take an eternal vacation, or will you work endlessly? Or some combination?

Whatever is done in Heaven - hoping it isn't an eternal vacation. The standard Protestant depiction of eternal rest while singing praises endlessly would be Hell to me.

6. What service can you possibly provide if everybody has everything they want or need?

This is where Mormon theology is the only one that works for me, as I frame it. In a Council of the Gods creative construct, I can provide laughter and perspective as others work on the actual creation.

7. Will you sit on a throne and give directions or make judgments?

That would be Hell to me.

8. Will you have closer relationships with certain others (family)?

Sure, with some who are not close now due to mortal limitations and radically different perspectives. That, at least, is my hope.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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PazamaManX
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Re: What is Heaven?

Post by PazamaManX »

I've been thinking more about some of the questions since my first post and so I thought I'd put my answers out there.

1. Do you believe there are laws (rules) in heaven? If so, are there punishments for breaking them?
No. I like Joseph Smith's statement about teaching people correct principles and them governing themselves. I imagine Heaven will be like that.

2. Do you believe there is justice in heaven?
Yes and no. No, in that I do not believe there will be a branch of celestial law enforcement, arresting and trying cases for delinquent angels. I don't think there will be a need (see previous answer). Yes because I'm sure every action will have its own "just" consequence.

3. Will all individuals be alike, or will there be differences in eye color, hair color, skin color or other physical or spiritual attributes? Will some be more glorious than others? Why or why not?
I'm sure everyone will have their own uniqueness to them. I don't see how a brunette with brown eyes will be more glorious than someone with blonde hair and blue eyes and vice versa. Being perfected probably doesn't mean being molded into a uniform appearance. But in general, I have little interest in being more or less glorious than another. If someone's aura is shining a half a degree brighter than mine, I don't think I'll care.

4. Will there be an order or hierarchy – will some be more responsible than others?
I hope not. I have no desire to be over or under anyone. That would not be Heaven for me.

5. What do you plan to do? Will you take an eternal vacation, or will you work endlessly? Or some combination?
Just give me some dirt to play with and I'll be happy. (See my first post for a better idea of what I would like to do with my eternity.)

6. What service can you possibly provide if everybody has everything they want or need?
I guess that depends on how the economy works. Will we have everything because we are the makers of our own goods or because they are provided?
But In either case, what I can hopefully provide is being a good friend that others enjoy being around from time to time.

7. Will you sit on a throne and give directions or make judgements?
No thanks. Don't want to.

8. Will you have closer relationships with certain others (family)?
Perhaps I will get to know people like my grandfather who I never had the chance to know very well in this life. I'd like that. But for others, I can't imagine how I'd be closer to them there than I am with them here, simply because we are there.
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness, even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." ~ Thomas Jefferson
Watcher
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Re: What is Heaven?

Post by Watcher »

I have opinions that may be different than most posting on this forum. I think much of what we experience in mortality will still exist in heaven. I do believe that there is good and evil, and I think we experience the difference in mortality, with the exception that I am thinking we will not be shielded or limited in heaven (or whatever life we find ourselves in the resurrection) from good or evil.

I am of the opinion that evil and its side kick, chaos – is the “natural” default of all things both physically and spiritually. That to be associated with good we must constantly maintain and keep renewals of good but that evil – like weeds in a garden – will take over whenever good is neglected. I am of the mind that the war between good and evil (light and dark) will be much more prevalent in heaven. I speculate that some will be very reliant and dependent on the mercy of those much more diligent in keeping darkness and evil at bay. Much like we all are dependent on G-d currently.

I believe some will become masters of discipline and that they will be free to have dominion over themselves that those that they shepherd – others I believe will remain dependent on those that protect and oversee heaven.

As far as enjoyment – I believe that all will enjoy and receive the blessings of heaven. I do believe that some will be like G-d and out of love share with and shepherd others. As a youth I would often complain about what was expected of me – My father would always remind me that there are two kinds of willing individuals in any society, country or community – those that are willing to work and contribute and those that are willing to let them.

I wonder if there are two kinds of attitudes among the citizens in the kingdoms of heaven – those that are willing to sacrifice for the benefit of others (the givers) and those that are willing to let them (the takers). I am of the opinion that this is not two or even 3 territories divided by and fine boundary with everybody on one side or the other but rather a spectrum kind of what is explained in Abraham chapter 3 but with the caveat that generally the spectrum will be known as 3 types of givers and takers.

I think the flaw in many attitudes of Christians is that they are mostly concerned about what they will get – their blessings, their glory, the mercy they get, their salvation and not so much on their sacrifices, their forgiveness of others, their mercy and their love for others. I include myself because I often do not care that much of others that scoff and belittle those things, I hold sacred.
Roy
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Re: What is Heaven?

Post by Roy »

When our third child was stillborn I was very frustrated that there were no definitive pronouncements about what would happen to her in the eternities.
Did she count as a living soul that was sealed to us under the covenant and would therefore be returned to us to raise in the millennium? The word from the church leaders was, "Maybe."
I had a hard time accepting that. If the prophet didn't know the answer then he could just ask G-d and then get back to me.

It has taken me a long time to come to peace with not knowing.
I now accept that everyone with a stillborn child can come up with an idea of what will happen that is most meaningful to them.
Maybe what happens will be up to the desire of each individual set of parents.

I feel that heaven is similar. We don't "know" a whole lot about it. Over the centuries, many people have imagined their hopes and dreams and projected that onto the construct of heaven. Some of that might work for me and some of it might not.

My thinking revolves quite a bit around 1 Corinthians 2:9
Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”
I imagine that our attempts to speculate what heaven will be like might only scratch the surface of what G-d has in store.

Perhaps we will all be right on some particulars. I also imagine that we will all be wrong about other details. However, I believe that even in being wrong there will be no shame - only wonder and amazement at how much better the reality is from what we had envisioned.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Watcher
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Joined: 12 Jul 2022, 08:39

Re: What is Heaven?

Post by Watcher »

Roy wrote: 29 Aug 2022, 08:47 When our third child was stillborn I was very frustrated that there were no definitive pronouncements about what would happen to her in the eternities.
Did she count as a living soul that was sealed to us under the covenant and would therefore be returned to us to raise in the millennium? The word from the church leaders was, "Maybe."
I had a hard time accepting that. If the prophet didn't know the answer then he could just ask G-d and then get back to me.

It has taken me a long time to come to peace with not knowing.
I now accept that everyone with a stillborn child can come up with an idea of what will happen that is most meaningful to them.
Maybe what happens will be up to the desire of each individual set of parents.

I feel that heaven is similar. We don't "know" a whole lot about it. Over the centuries, many people have imagined their hopes and dreams and projected that onto the construct of heaven. Some of that might work for me and some of it might not.

My thinking revolves quite a bit around 1 Corinthians 2:9
Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”
I imagine that our attempts to speculate what heaven will be like might only scratch the surface of what G-d has in store.

Perhaps we will all be right on some particulars. I also imagine that we will all be wrong about other details. However, I believe that even in being wrong there will be no shame - only wonder and amazement at how much better the reality is from what we had envisioned.
Thank you for your contribution, Roy. As I was reading your comments, I thought of the SIFY writer Arthur C. Clarke that said in essence that any civilization with sufficiently advanced technology will be ununderstood (unexplainable) and thought of as magic. I have often pondered transporting one of my distant ancestors to my home for a day. How would I explain the internet, TV and facetiming someone on a different continent? Even if I gave them a cell phone to take back with them – it would not work in their past environment, and no one would be able to discern the components or how to reverse engineer it without the infrastructure of both technologies and knowledge to support it.

I have often wondered if at some distance time we (and other religious thinkers) meet with G-d and he takes us with him for a tour of Heaven (Celestial Kingdom) and when we see who is there and what they are about that we ask G-d if this is really heaven? He would respond with the notion that it is just one of many possibilities. And then we explain what we hoped that heaven would be. In turn G-d tells us that there is such a heaven that has been prepared just for us and those that desire such a heaven but it is not where he permanently resides.

I do not know what will happen to children that are still born. But from what I understand of the Plan of Salvation (Plan of Happiness) is that what ever happens it will be the best possibility for that child that fulfills both theirs and your agency and all such things were known and agreed upon in our pre-existence.
Roy
Posts: 7183
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: What is Heaven?

Post by Roy »

Watcher wrote: 30 Aug 2022, 09:28 what I understand of the Plan of Salvation (Plan of Happiness) is that what ever happens it will be the best possibility for that child that fulfills both theirs and your agency
Amen! That is my hope also.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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