What is Heaven?

For the discussion of spirituality -- from LDS and non-LDS sources
Watcher
Posts: 114
Joined: 12 Jul 2022, 08:39

What is Heaven?

Post by Watcher »

I enjoy religious discussions and ideas since my youth and have studied many religions. I also did a lot of traveling to many places in the world with my work. Whenever I got a break from work, I made efforts to become familiar with local cultures (including religion). I have also been interested to learn what other of devout faith think of the religion to which I hold in highest regard. I learn a lot from others.

About 35 years ago I read a book critical of Christians. I have forgotten both the title of the book and the author. Mostly the book was not critical of Christianity – just Christians. There were a few criticisms I found to be quite interesting but the criticism that was most memorable was concerning heaven.

The criticism went something like this: Christians are obsessed about getting into heaven after they die yet they have no concept what heaven is, what they will do there and how they will fit in (get along with others). There was an entire chapter in the book on this note. I have pondered this subject.

I am interested what others here may think so here are some questions:

1. Do you believe there are laws (rules) in heaven? If so, are there punishments for breaking them?
2. Do you believe there is justice in heaven?
3. Will all individuals be alike, or will there be differences in eye color, hair color, skin color or other physical or spiritual attributes? Will some be more glorious than others? Why or why not?
4. Will there be an order or hierarchy – will some be more responsible than others?
5. What do you plan to do? Will you take an eternal vacation, or will you work endlessly? Or some combination?
6. What service can you possibly provide if everybody has everything they want or need?
7. Will you sit on a throne and give directions or make judgements?
8. Will you have closer relationships with certain others (family)?

You can add anything else or criticize whatever you like. What is the heaven to which you aspire to? What if heaven turns out to be something not to you likening? What will you do about it?
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nibbler
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Re: What is Heaven?

Post by nibbler »

A state of mind.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
— Steven Wright
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DarkJedi
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Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: What is Heaven?

Post by DarkJedi »

We know so little about heaven or the afterlife in general (and for the sake of the conversation I'll suppose there is an afterlife). Most of what we think we know isn't really based on scripture or is based on one interpretation of scripture when there are other possible (or even probable) meanings. The rest of what we think we know is stuff man came up with. I don't personally believe in the three degrees, but if they did exist I subscribe to the pre-McConkie era when it was widely taught and believed "progression" trough the kingdoms was possible. And I totally agree with Nibbler, heaven is likely a state of mind (or being). So with that, here goes.

Do you believe there are laws (rules) in heaven? If so, are there punishments for breaking them? I suppose from a purist point of view there would be no need for laws because we'd all be perfect. I do believe God is bound by the laws of physics (even those we don't yet understand) and probably is really not omnipotent in that respect.

Do you believe there is justice in heaven? I believe the definition of justice is fairness. With that definition, yes I believe heaven is just (and thus is the hope of the Gospel).

Will all individuals be alike, or will there be differences in eye color, hair color, skin color or other physical or spiritual attributes? Will some be more glorious than others? Why or why not? Doubtful we'll all look alike, not sure if we'll look like we do here. Since we know so little there's no way to explain believing one way or the other. Going back to the last question, if there is fairness in heaven there will be none above (or more glorious than) another. I don't believe God plays favorites (justice at work).

Will there be an order or hierarchy – will some be more responsible than others? Another toughie because we just don't know enough. In my heaven, no (justice again).

What do you plan to do? Will you take an eternal vacation, or will you work endlessly? Or some combination? Heaven would be no fun if it were all work. I view it more as an eternal vacation but really have no idea. I can't say what I'd do. I hope they have some good TV shows and movies.

What service can you possibly provide if everybody has everything they want or need? Good point, maybe that's why we're supposed to do it here.

Will you sit on a throne and give directions or make judgements? No, and neither will anybody else (justice once again).

Will you have closer relationships with certain others (family)? I don't know about closer but I hope we do have relationships. I think that's a common belief (the church teaching that others don't believe in eternal marriage/eternal relationships is untrue - just read any day's worth of obituaries and you'll figure that out). That said, I also believe the church teaching of being sealed together as families may not be exactly the way we are taught and believe, although we may be sealed together in some way as one big family (children of God). Our sealing will not depend on any earthly beings nor our obedience to the WoW, paying tithing, or any other "worthiness" (justice yet again).

There are those who postulate here that heaven and post-earthly relationships will be whatever we want them to be. If there is a heaven I more or less subscribe to that idea. For the record, I do not believe there is a hell.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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PazamaManX
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Re: What is Heaven?

Post by PazamaManX »

This comparison will probably fall flat for anyone who hasn't played the game, but for me Heaven would be something like the video game 'Stardew Valley'.

In that game, you are given a plot of land and you live in a picturesque small town. The game gives you some objectives, but it's your choice if you want to do those or do something else entirely. You can grow a thriving farm, go fishing, befriend the locals, or many other things. What you do with your days is entirely up to you. You are not punished for not doing anything, but everything has a benefit for doing it. You have very few needs to worry about taking care of and nothing bad can happen to you unless you deliberately put yourself in a situation where it can.

Basically, the game let's you have the fun of living a simple life while having all of the things that make life stressful being removed or toned down.

Will Heaven be anything like that? Who knows.

For your eight questions, I had some answers written out, but DJ said about what mine would have been (I believe we were typing at the same time), but better.
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness, even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." ~ Thomas Jefferson
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DarkJedi
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Re: What is Heaven?

Post by DarkJedi »

I do have another thought on the topic. I'm not sure we're supposed to be all that worried about heaven - and maybe that's why we don't know a lot about it.

Master Yoda said of Luke Skywalker "All his life has he looked away…to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing." Maybe we're supposed to be more concerned with what we're doing now than worrying about something we know almost nothing about.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction
Roy
Posts: 7183
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: What is Heaven?

Post by Roy »

I believe in God. I believe that I was created and that I am loved.

I believe in Jesus Christ. I love the idea of God giving up everything (even if only temporarily) to save us from ourselves. I do not know if the historical Jesus was this literal Messiah/Christ. However, I feel that Jesus has become a symbol for the overwhelming love of God. I believe in that love and I believe in the symbols of that love. I am prepared to act on that belief with faith.

I am agnostic about the afterlife. If a loving parent God created me and wants the best for me - then I will leave it to Him if that includes eternal existence or not. If there is an afterlife, then I will accept whatever form that afterlife may take based on the same trust and faith in my creator's designs. I am honestly not afraid of a possible ending through death. Endings can be beautiful, endings can be merciful, endings can be peaceful.

I believe that human relationships are the most meaningful things in life.

I believe that temple sealing CAN be a beautiful metaphor and ideal about investing in these human relationships. (I say CAN because sometimes it can get twisted into guilt and shame)

The two biggest commandments are to love God and to love your fellows. Amen. :D
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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PazamaManX
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Joined: 24 Nov 2018, 03:21

Re: What is Heaven?

Post by PazamaManX »

DarkJedi wrote: 25 Aug 2022, 10:27 I do have another thought on the topic. I'm not sure we're supposed to be all that worried about heaven - and maybe that's why we don't know a lot about it.

Master Yoda said of Luke Skywalker "All his life has he looked away…to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing." Maybe we're supposed to be more concerned with what we're doing now than worrying about something we know almost nothing about.
This is a good thought. Really, details about what lays beyond are useless to us. We have enough to provide hope and comfort about what comes next, but not much more. Knowing what time my celestial harp lessons will be does nothing for my life and how I live it today.
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness, even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." ~ Thomas Jefferson
Arrakeen
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Joined: 25 Aug 2018, 18:49

Re: What is Heaven?

Post by Arrakeen »

Watcher wrote: 24 Aug 2022, 19:06
1. Do you believe there are laws (rules) in heaven? If so, are there punishments for breaking them?
2. Do you believe there is justice in heaven?
3. Will all individuals be alike, or will there be differences in eye color, hair color, skin color or other physical or spiritual attributes? Will some be more glorious than others? Why or why not?
4. Will there be an order or hierarchy – will some be more responsible than others?
5. What do you plan to do? Will you take an eternal vacation, or will you work endlessly? Or some combination?
6. What service can you possibly provide if everybody has everything they want or need?
7. Will you sit on a throne and give directions or make judgements?
8. Will you have closer relationships with certain others (family)?
1. I don't believe in eternal laws or punishments in the typical sense of rules that would be actively enforced. I believe the only laws would be natural laws, with their natural consequences.

2. What is justice? I sometimes feel justice in the mortal world is a futile attempt to make right what in reality cannot be made right. If someone commits murder, they get punished. But that doesn't actually fix anything. The victim is still dead. I suppose an afterlife without human limitations could have some better way of fixing things that would actually restore things to an unbroken state.

3. I'm not sure any of our human characteristics would matter much, and I've never understood the point of exalted bodies as often imagined in LDS thought. Why have hands or feet if you can move things with your mind? Or a nose if you don't need to breathe air? The human body seems to be suited for survival on planet Earth, and a lot of it just doesn't make sense for an immortal, godlike being. So if there is an afterlife, I'm not sure we'd be in anything resembling a human body.

4. Assuming we are the same people in the afterlife, I think there will be a hierarchy because that's just what people do. Hopefully there will be enough individual freedom that whatever structure there is will be entirely voluntary.

5. I certainly don't like the idea of a busy heaven having to micromanage billions of spirit offspring. I'd probably lean towards the eternal vacation and let many prayers go to voicemail. I do think eternal leisure could get boring though, so I'd hope that heaven still has a lot of new things to learn about and that I'm not already omniscient.

6. Everyone may think they have everything they want or need, but I'm sure some entrepreneurial spirit will come up with something new that everyone will suddenly decide they need.

7. No thrones or judgements for me. I'm an introvert who would rather stay out of the spotlight.

8. Not sure about relationships. I guess with an eternity together you would know each other pretty well. But I think relationships will be pretty much the same as they are here. Some people will get along, some won't.
Arrakeen
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Joined: 25 Aug 2018, 18:49

Re: What is Heaven?

Post by Arrakeen »

There are a few different views on the afterlife that I have encountered in recent years that I find quite interesting.

Growing up in the church, I always thought reincarnation was a ridiculous concept, but more recently I have come to appreciate it more. I think reincarnation could be a form of "eternal progression" that could solve a lot of things that bother me about the plan of salvation. It could allow for universal salvation while still requiring eventual perfection of everyone. We could carry certain positive character traits we develop into a new life after we die, then repeat the cycle as we get better and better. This could be one type of "heaven", which would pretty much just be life but with the opportunity to make ourselves better and the hope of more favorable circumstances in the next life.

There is another concept of the afterlife that I have seen in some works of fiction where a character is given immortality, often as a form of punishment. They live a fairly normal life as an immortal among mortals, unable to die but having some kind of supernatural powers, and also being immensely wealthy after having lived for 1000 years. While the point of these stories is often the pain of outliving everyone they care about and the meaninglessness of an unending existence, I think there are elements of this that are kind of nice.

Basically, there are a lot of things I would like to do that I will never get the opportunity to do because of time, money, or mortality. Too many things to be able to do in one human lifetime. Expensive things that I will never have the money to do. Dangerous things that are too risky to do as a mere mortal. For me, I would hope for a heaven where I can pretty much still be me, but be able to do the things I was not able to do before. And if everyone else was still mortal, you could go around doing good and making the world a better place. In many ways, I think being in the human world as an immortal but still human being would be far more interesting than being in a heaven where everyone is exalted and has all they would ever need. This could also be a type of "heaven", which I guess could be seen as the Three-Nephite track.
Roy
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: What is Heaven?

Post by Roy »

I have been thinking a little more about this and I am finding the concept of eternal life manipulative. I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way. it can manipulate or influence people to make positive choices.

If I have an eternal life and eternal torment is a possibility then I should be highly motivated to do what I can to avoid such a fate. I cannot imagine anything worse than never ending suffering and pain.

So church steps in with promises of how to avoid the bad place and go to the good place.

Maybe heaven is just a big carrot to help people make positive life choices.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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