I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

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Minyan Man
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by Minyan Man »

I recently found a talk given by Elder David A Bednar, Jan 2016, BYU-Idaho
In the talk he emphasized the importance of repetition in learning, teaching and receiving spiritual revelation.
I don't know if it applies here but it's worth posting. (maybe)
He explained in detail an account in Joseph Smith-History, a segment of LDS scripture, in which Joseph Smith is visited four times by the angel Moroni. Bednar noted a pattern in the text: that the angel delivered the exact same core message but added a personalized warning or instruction during each appearance.

Bednar said repetition in teaching is a hallmark for religious leaders and showed examples of this in his own life as an apostle.
He said many members of the church hear repetition of topics or messages in Sunday meetings or General Conference and do not see the value in the repetition, but he encouraged appreciation for it.

He went on to point out how key ordinances of the church, like baptism, use repetition and said the Holy Spirit can help enhance knowledge already obtained and bring new knowledge.
The full talk is: https://www.byui.edu/devotionals/elder-david-a-bednar

I'm wondering if this could be part of my problem: I want to discuss my thoughts & ideas while the church wants to make sure the members
learn the basics?
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nibbler
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by nibbler »

If the only thing we ever do is repeat the same things people will get bored and disengage. If people become bored and disengage they won't learn either.

Moroni visited Smith four times and repeated a core message... but Smith went on from there to ask more questions and learn more things. He built on prior revelation by exploring new thoughts and ideas.

I agree with Bednar in that repetition is useful and helps us learn and grow. There's the famous Bruce Lee quote, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

On the other hand, I think we can take the idea of repetition to an extreme, maybe even going so far as citing the importance of repetition as an excuse to avoid exploratory discussions. I'm not saying that's what Bednar has done in his talk, but I do see the phenomenon in our culture. We say we have to have milk before the meat. We say that nothing inspiring was said during conference because we haven't been sufficiently obedient to what's already been said during previous uninspiring conferences.

It's an issue of extremes. Repetition has its place, exploring new thoughts and ideas has its place. We use repetition to reinforce the good we've learned and we explore new thoughts and ideas to add to that good.

It's a complex issue but I think one contributor is that people aren't comfortable with exploring/speculating. We feel much safer listening to authoritative voices (scripture, leaders, manuals, etc.). For example, we don't like talking about Heavenly Mother because it's all speculative... until someone in a position of authority makes a declaration, then it becomes safe to have an opinion because we then know what our opinion should be. :P

Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society which is mostly repetition. It's really on us to supplement. I've found that there's not much appetite to explore supplemental topics at church. It's almost required to look elsewhere for those sorts of discussions.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
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nibbler
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by nibbler »

I did want to add a post on one of the benefits of repetition. I think I've posted this before but... repetition. :angel:

I used to attend other religions' services once a month, if nothing more than to get a fresh perspective. I attended Buddhist services a few times during that period. Their services were almost an inverse of our typical sacrament service; 90% ritual and 10% sermon. After one visit I came home and discussed my experience with my wife. The bowing, walking in circles, incense, chanting. It was very repetitive.

My wife helped me understand the importance of the rites I had experienced. She said that the rites had the effect of helping people arrive at a spiritual state of mind. I found that to be true. I'll butcher my thoughts trying to put them into words but...

The idea is that you feel the spirit while you're at church. It may take a while, maybe even weeks, but you make some sort of connection. Meanwhile you're bowing, chanting, walking in circles, smelling the incense, etc. the entire time. You do this over and over again. You might even do it so much that the original meaning gets lost.

Then you have a bad day.

You go to church, and right when you walk in the door you smell the incense. That's it. Just the sensation of smell alone can connect you back to the spirit. The repetition has created an association, maybe it even becomes Pavlovian, the familiar smell of incense brings everything back, and what would have taken hours or weeks to arrive at a spiritual place can happen in an instant.

I'm not sure how to frame that in the context of our church. Whenever I hear someone repeat "covenant path" it usually has the opposite effect, it puts me in a foul mood. :twisted:

But the principle can be the same. Hearing and experiencing the familiar can bring tremendous comfort.

It requires balance. The familiar for when the familiar is needed, exploring when exploring is needed. When there are wrong and right opinions things typically get out of balance.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
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DarkJedi
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by DarkJedi »

nibbler wrote: 14 Apr 2022, 11:11 Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society which is mostly repetition. It's really on us to supplement. I've found that there's not much appetite to explore supplemental topics at church. It's almost required to look elsewhere for those sorts of discussions.
The interesting part here is that I think from a big picture perspective Come Follow Me was meant to provide the supplementation. If we all really did study (as opposed to just reading and not thinking) and discuss with our families the insights we gained and talked about other sources of information our faith and understanding as a people could dramatically increase. Then if we had those same discussions in our classes at church our shared understandings and faith could increase dramatically. I think the system breaks down both at home (although I am positive some families do as I described) and at church where people are stuck in the old ways of doing things (very similar to ministering vs. home teaching).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by Roy »

Minyan Man wrote: 14 Apr 2022, 09:57 I recently found a talk given by Elder David A Bednar, Jan 2016, BYU-Idaho
In the talk he emphasized the importance of repetition in learning, teaching and receiving spiritual revelation.
I don't know if it applies here but it's worth posting. (maybe)
I feel that we engage in a good deal of explaining/justifying why things are the way they are.
Q. Why is there sickness and death in the world?
A. It is because Adam and Eve ate the fruit.
Q. Why doesn't the snake have legs?
A. Because it was cursed by God for tricking Adam & Eve.
Q. Why can't black people hold the priesthood?
A. Because they were less valiant in the premortal life.
Q. Why must we wear white shirts at church?
A. Because white represents purity which represents Jesus.
Q. Why must church lessons be so repetitive?
A. Because repetition is how God teaches important things.

This can be fine when it describes things that are fixed and cannot change. Where it becomes a more serious problem is where the explanations/justifications become additional barriers to changing what can change and what should change.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
AmyJ
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by AmyJ »

nibbler wrote: 14 Apr 2022, 11:11 We feel much safer listening to authoritative voices (scripture, leaders, manuals, etc.). For example, we don't like talking about Heavenly Mother because it's all speculative... until someone in a position of authority makes a declaration, then it becomes safe to have an opinion because we then know what our opinion should be. :P
That's a nice theory about safety:)

We haven't "lost" Heavenly Mother from our culture's vocabulary BECAUSE of who the "core influencers" are. We collectively "authorize" Eliza Snow's hymn as "evidence" BECAUSE she was such a cultural gem at the time (and her words got into print) AND a strong woman leader AND paid her RS dues AND other women were also strong and vocal at the time in the co-creation of the church were supporting her and reinforcing her brand of culture AND has such a close connection to Joseph Smith, who said/taught things about God and our connection to God that it's plausible her thoughts were based on a foundation Joseph Smith set.

In my opinion, the insistence on the standardization that we "know stuff" about God - that we in our culture insist on the "First Vision" being a "Visitation" instead of a more malleable "Vision" made having a perfect description of God a "zero-sum-game" (not that it needed that push per se). There was no "Heavenly Mother" reported at the "Visitation", ergo the existence of and function of Heavenly Mother is nebulous, not an important fact. I don't think that at the time of the First Vision, that Joseph Smith was thinking about a "Mother" at all - it is my understanding that he felt guilty for the sins he had committed and wanted to chat with God (We assume that it is Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ - but I don't know that that is an accurate assumption - Was Joseph at 14 looking for a gender when looking at God?) about that, and that he was looking for which church to join on a participation level.

Also, I think that to cut Heavenly Mother completely out of our culture is basically a form of religious suicide - because when you cut Heavenly Mother out of the equation with our other beliefs about God and our path of progression, you are clearly and completely making the statement to the female members of the congregation, "Oh, sorry - we lied. Gender is so eternal and so important that it doesn't change - and there is no divine path for you, but we have a nice pedestal set up for you to rest in and we can visit 1x - 2x a year the lot of you."

It was groundbreaking for the Young Women presidency to be able to shift to "Heavenly Parents" in the first place and providing some modern institutional authorization for Heavenly Mother - that is slowly being (and most recently not so slowly) being eroded. I get it - Heavenly Mother does not fill a specific need/role model for the male leadership the way that She does for some church members. I get that when push comes to shove, talking to Heavenly Mother in place of talking to Heavenly Father is very uncomfortable - and the "why" that might happen that way - because of the failure of some men in the lives of these women - can feel like a gut punch. I also get that the "cool kids at the religious organization table" are likely to kick us out of their exclusive club if we don't toe specific culture lines in our descriptions of God.
AmyJ
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by AmyJ »

DarkJedi wrote: 14 Apr 2022, 11:41
nibbler wrote: 14 Apr 2022, 11:11 Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society which is mostly repetition. It's really on us to supplement. I've found that there's not much appetite to explore supplemental topics at church. It's almost required to look elsewhere for those sorts of discussions.
The interesting part here is that I think from a big picture perspective Come Follow Me was meant to provide the supplementation. If we all really did study (as opposed to just reading and not thinking) and discuss with our families the insights we gained and talked about other sources of information our faith and understanding as a people could dramatically increase. Then if we had those same discussions in our classes at church our shared understandings and faith could increase dramatically. I think the system breaks down both at home (although I am positive some families do as I described) and at church where people are stuck in the old ways of doing things (very similar to ministering vs. home teaching).
I agree with what Dark Jedi is saying... AND
  • It's An Executive Functioning Motivation Problem - There is a lot out there that is more engaging then scripture study (the default knee jerk reaction is gender-segregated "pin interest" and "video games". But people have busy lives - there actually may not be the time the scripture study needs to produce those results.
  • It's Handed off to Women - the Women's Broadcast was when it was rolled out. President Eyring especially handed it off to the women of the church as part of their "nurturing" duty. I remember this quite well because I got the memo about "being the gender responsible for the spiritual wellbeing of my children" - and I nearly left the church over that. I barely felt OK handling my own spiritual stuff - and here is a bunch of general authorities trying to coax (that's the most generous words I can find) me into taking on the spiritual stuff of my family through this specific program - No Thanks! NOTE: I gather/remember that at the next broadcast for the brethren, it was presented as a "task of presiding - to make sure it gets done" more or less. I remember that much because dark thoughts may or may not have crossed my mind at the time.
  • There was No Communication Training Foundation Included (Or it never reached my ears) - Shifting the conversational "battleground" from "Sunday School (where distancing and not taking things "personally" was a known thing)" to "the Living Room" without any personal conflict management training set the families who didn't have those skills up for failure. I hear over and over again that for some families, it is a "15 minute box to be checked" and a source of frustration and unresolved expectation mismanagement. Discussions over content went from being "impersonal" in a public environment with safeguards to being very "personal" by importing it into the family.
It can be a lot more. I hear stories of (usually retirees) for whom it works well. IF it is an equalized executive functioning deal (all spouses are engaged in the logistics of it), IF the content is relevant to the family members, IF family members have the time and resources to devote to study, listening, and thinking about it, and IF there is a family culture of solid communication skills, it probably works really well.
AmyJ
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by AmyJ »

nibbler wrote: 14 Apr 2022, 11:37 I'm not sure how to frame that in the context of our church. Whenever I hear someone repeat "covenant path" it usually has the opposite effect, it puts me in a foul mood. :twisted:

But the principle can be the same. Hearing and experiencing the familiar can bring tremendous comfort.

It requires balance. The familiar for when the familiar is needed, exploring when exploring is needed. When there are wrong and right opinions things typically get out of balance.
I think that church attendance can "ground the body" sometimes. The rituals of getting ready, of showing up, of knowing what to expect, and knowing that you were doing something that others around you were doing to can do that. Whatever it takes to trigger that sense of community and belonging - I think that is what you are talking about.

I have found that most of my spiritual "problem" foundationally was that I fundamentally found evidence that I didn't "belong" in my religious community anymore (losing Faith in God in a Faith Forward community will do that you when you are already an outsider/poor fit) - but I did "belong" because it is part of my heritage and part of my family.

My mother-in-law passed away a year ago and we went to her funeral. The funeral was held in the same stake that I grew up in. In my sleep-deprived, stressed, overburdened, grieving state - it was a huge comfort to know the building, to know the songs, to see people I hadn't seen in 10-15 years. I guess that it mattered so much because the gentle matriarch of my husband's family had just left us - there was so much uncertainty (my experience with Mormon funerals was nil, so even more uncertainty on my part) that it was amazing to feel the certainty of belonging there in that experience.
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DarkJedi
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by DarkJedi »

AmyJ wrote: 15 Apr 2022, 05:27 It can be a lot more. I hear stories of (usually retirees) for whom it works well. IF it is an equalized executive functioning deal (all spouses are engaged in the logistics of it), IF the content is relevant to the family members, IF family members have the time and resources to devote to study, listening, and thinking about it, and IF there is a family culture of solid communication skills, it probably works really well.
I agree, and in the cases where it is working for individuals and families the breakdown is clearly at church on Sunday. I think the church has not done a very good job at training teachers how to facilitate discussions of this nature. There could be several reasons for that beyond just those who like the status quo in the way it's always been done. A big reason might be the shock that might come from a perspective outside the church narrative. I have said this before, we really don't do justice to the Old Testament in our "study" and classes. Not all of the stuff we skip is repetitive, some of it just doesn't fit the narrative. And the narrative comes from a very singular point of view where 2+2 doesn't always equal 4 when you look at it (or more correctly it's made to look like 2+1=4). Specifically in regards to the OT we almost wholly ignore the Jewish point of view - and it was their text! We put everything in the Christian context, even if there isn't really any Christian context (in fairness we're not the only ones who do that).

As an aside but related, I think many faith crises have their roots in missionary service for the same reasons alluded to above. We're giving missionaries at least 2 hours every day to actually study the scriptures on their own and together. The ones who actually do study as opposed to just reading (often absently) and checking the box often have those "Huh? That's not what my seminary teacher said!" moments. The seeds of my own FC were undoubtedly planted on my mission. For those individuals and families who really undertake Come Follow Me the same sorts of things could happen (and I am aware of a couple instances with people I know where it has happened). This is particularly true for people who are willing to look at other translations and outside viewpoints on the same material. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that while Jesus was the son of God he was not and is not a God himself (they are in that respect unitarian - 1 God). They justify that belief by citing the New Testament where Jesus never claims to be a God (and I have not seen any translation where Jesus does make that claim). I have also never heard a statement that Jesus never claimed to be God made in our church and I bet many members would be surprised to learn he never said any such thing because the narrative is different.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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AmyJ
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by AmyJ »

DarkJedi wrote: 15 Apr 2022, 07:13
AmyJ wrote: 15 Apr 2022, 05:27 It can be a lot more. I hear stories of (usually retirees) for whom it works well. IF it is an equalized executive functioning deal (all spouses are engaged in the logistics of it), IF the content is relevant to the family members, IF family members have the time and resources to devote to study, listening, and thinking about it, and IF there is a family culture of solid communication skills, it probably works really well.
I agree, and in the cases where it is working for individuals and families the breakdown is clearly at church on Sunday. I think the church has not done a very good job at training teachers how to facilitate discussions of this nature.
I always thought that was a feature, not a bug for the situation. The idea of it was to mitigate teaching/staffing requirements at church while "strengthening the family". [Tongue in cheek - the same reasons "why" cleaning the church went to unpaid volunteers - with roughly the same results. YMMV]

I think unintended consequences of it were a) alienating the population who does not have a spiritual family base aka "proper home environment" for home centered, church supported church, b) making more work for the woman at home because she is running/co-planning the lessons at home AND doing church work AND living a life (for less "peer recognition" - everyone is doing it), and c) creating echo chambers in family structures.

I think the bigger problem is assuming that men and women had the time and resources (and communication skills) to handle interesting, thought-provoking gospel conversations without at least a heads up along the lines of, "Don't do this until you and your partner can communicate well enough to handle these issues without fighting". The church makes a stab at teaching facilitation/communication skills for the teachers - the couples don't even get standardized pre-marital counseling to start the process.
DarkJedi wrote: 15 Apr 2022, 07:13 There could be several reasons for that beyond just those who like the status quo in the way it's always been done. A big reason might be the shock that might come from a perspective outside the church narrative. I have said this before, we really don't do justice to the Old Testament in our "study" and classes. Not all of the stuff we skip is repetitive, some of it just doesn't fit the narrative. And the narrative comes from a very singular point of view where 2+2 doesn't always equal 4 when you look at it (or more correctly it's made to look like 2+1=4). Specifically in regards to the OT we almost wholly ignore the Jewish point of view - and it was their text! We put everything in the Christian context, even if there isn't really any Christian context (in fairness we're not the only ones who do that).
I think that the 3 hour church services were a way to solve the problems of "correlation" and "ensuring that people had the opportunity for spiritual nourishment", "many hands make light work" staffing philosophy, and had a stronger community tie. People had fewer ways that they considered profitable for spending their time (at a cultural, community, and family level). It was a glaring problem (from a church administration standpoint) that when people had to choose between spending their time at employment (both Sunday work and 2 wage worker recovery from work) and spending their time at church - it was a harder sell to keep their butts at church then not.

SIDE NOTE: We spent a good hundred years or so with a selling point that "we aren't like other churches" in our theology (still state that to a degree) - so we don't give their scholarship the credence it deserves. When push comes to shove, the scholar resources (bucks) are going to get paid for OUR take on scripture, OUR correlated understanding of events/controlling the narrative, because "we" are not like "them".
DarkJedi wrote: 15 Apr 2022, 07:13 As an aside but related, I think many faith crises have their roots in missionary service for the same reasons alluded to above. We're giving missionaries at least 2 hours every day to actually study the scriptures on their own and together. The ones who actually do study as opposed to just reading (often absently) and checking the box often have those "Huh? That's not what my seminary teacher said!" moments. The seeds of my own FC were undoubtedly planted on my mission. For those individuals and families who really undertake Come Follow Me the same sorts of things could happen (and I am aware of a couple instances with people I know where it has happened).
I can totally see that.

From women I know who are trying to do this, who actually took President Eyring seriously, I hear snippets of "I am trying to run Come Follow Me and have spiritual experiences - and my husband checks out before it even starts". What their verbal language says at the time is "I am defeated before I start, I am not good enough for this, and I am not being listened to."

We tried running CFM the first month it came out - we had 3 official lessons lasting 5-10 minutes before we threw in the towel. It wasn't worth the resources it took to run it for my young family.
DarkJedi wrote: 15 Apr 2022, 07:13 This is particularly true for people who are willing to look at other translations and outside viewpoints on the same material. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that while Jesus was the son of God he was not and is not a God himself (they are in that respect unitarian - 1 God). They justify that belief by citing the New Testament where Jesus never claims to be a God (and I have not seen any translation where Jesus does make that claim). I have also never heard a statement that Jesus never claimed to be God made in our church and I bet many members would be surprised to learn he never said any such thing because the narrative is different.
Our faith transition's overarching narrative of "1 way of thinking" makes it a lot harder to accept other viewpoints without being threatened. When "Unity (1 thought)" and "Correlation [there is a correct thought] are the most important values, it makes it a little hard to have a narrative with diverse worldviews.

Case in point, I have an ongoing narrative with my very active sister. It's a good conversation actually.
But it always comes back to her view that there is 1 "best way" of doing things or a "best belief system" - and that fundamentally impacts her ability to meet her "wandering siblings" where they are and be comfortable. She cannot sit with them comfortably in their living arrangements or words "because she knows better" and the siblings know that she knows better.

She was very frank in her assertion about how gospel living and being Christian are important in her life and some ways that they drive her narrative - and then closed the conversation as if I was going to get really mad and cut her off. I totally get it - my siblings have not had this site (or anthropology training or counseling to normalize diverse points of view), so they would (and probably did) take it personally and dramatically sever the relationship for a while. I wasn't offended, and it made sense what she was saying. But I did do a double take when she started talking as if I was going to cut her off and spent several paragraphs clarifying my stance and making her comfortable in the conversation.
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