I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

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DarkJedi
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

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I feel to some extent as though the church has left me, not the other way around. Don't get me wrong, I love the changes that came early in the Nelson regime. But COVID definitely complicated things. I do miss church in some ways and I do intend to return at some point. While I do use COVID concerns as an excuse, there is also validity to my concerns and as Roy alludes to my concerns are not validated. There are a handful of us who have not returned due to COVID concerns, yet the ward forges ahead with full program (despite the super-spreader ward Christmas party) and they stopped streaming SM 9 months ago. I don't want to get sick and I don't want to risk any long term effects of COVID, which seem to strike willy-nilly. I have not been asked once by a ward leader or my ministering brother (also a ward leader who I have regular contact with) what keeps me from coming or how they could help me be comfortable coming.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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nibbler
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

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Roy wrote: 30 Mar 2022, 14:40I used to find validation, affirmation, and belonging in the same teachings that I now find invalidating.
Yes, that's a better way of putting it.
DarkJedi wrote: 31 Mar 2022, 07:11I have not been asked once by a ward leader or my ministering brother (also a ward leader who I have regular contact with) what keeps me from coming or how they could help me be comfortable coming.
We attempted to accommodate people by closing church during the initial months of the pandemic, suggesting mask usage after reopening, and offering temporary online options. Maybe that's just erring on the side of caution. There's a blurred line between implementing safety measures and accommodating people.

Even then I think our accommodations were presented as this is what you get, take it or leave it. We're not very good at tailoring the experience to the needs of the individual. Maybe it's too much of an inconvenience or maybe the thought doesn't even cross our minds, we're stuck in looking for rules from the top to tell us how to do mode.

Another complication is that accommodating one group inconveniences another. As an example, asking people to wear masks to get me to come back to church irritates other members that don't want to wear masks, maybe so much so that they stop attending. There are ways around that problem. Designating one ward in the stake where masks are required... or just continue with the online.
DarkJedi wrote: 31 Mar 2022, 07:11 There are a handful of us who have not returned due to COVID concerns, yet the ward forges ahead with full program (despite the super-spreader ward Christmas party)
They're probably thinking, why bother with covid restrictions? Everyone in the ward has had it now. :smile: :(

I had my first, "Where have you been?" visit a week ago. We told them the only reason we weren't showing up was due to covid. Our experience has been similar to yours DJ, they didn't ask what they could do to help us feel more comfortable at church, they just proudly proclaimed that there was no longer a mask suggestion (I refuse to call an unenforced mask requirement a requirement). I told them that relaxing that suggestion made me less likely to return to church, not more likely. They looked flabbergasted.

Let's face it DJ, we're in the minority. They're accommodating the majority and we ain't it.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
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Minyan Man
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by Minyan Man »

Is it just my only ward where the older "true blue" members are silent or only reply to the lessons when called upon?

Is there an unwritten rule that lesson discussions should be open to only new members, where possible?

Every week it seems to be this way. (I can't comment on what happens in RS.)
It is interesting, the number of people that congregate in the halls during the class periods. Including the Bishop.
The only time that I've had an interesting discussion with our Bishop has been impromptu & spur of the moment in the hallway.
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DarkJedi
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

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Minyan Man wrote: 31 Mar 2022, 10:08 Is it just my only ward where the older "true blue" members are silent or only reply to the lessons when called upon?

Is there an unwritten rule that lesson discussions should be open to only new members, where possible?

Every week it seems to be this way. (I can't comment on what happens in RS.)
It is interesting, the number of people that congregate in the halls during the class periods. Including the Bishop.
The only time that I've had an interesting discussion with our Bishop has been impromptu & spur of the moment in the hallway.
I'm not sure my experience is relevant because I live in a very small and very old ward. I'd say we're stagnant, but that's really only true of the older members - several young families we used to have moved away over the last two years. A big day in Primary these days is 4 or 5 kids, often only two - there are more adults there than kids. We have 3 active young men (two of them are brothers), all deacons. Our EQP is one of the youngest guys in the ward and he's mid-30s, his wife is Primary president and their son is one of the two that regularly show to Primary. When I was ordained a high priest back in the early 90s I was one of the youngest high priests in the ward. I still am.

I guess what I'm getting at here is if us older folks (and I'm on the younger side of them) didn't speak up no one would because there isn't much of anyone else. I haven't been to SS/PH but I do hear a complaint that often a middle aged mentally ill guy often attempts to derail and dominate those meetings with some pretty off the wall stuff and while both the EQP and SS teacher are good about reigning him in he still manages to dominate about 10-15 minutes on any Sunday he's there (he's there about half the time). Another reason not to go from my point of view.

And, related and kind of what Roy was saying, among those who moved over the past couple years were several that I could count on as validating or supportive if I did bring up an alternative perspective in one of those meetings. Without them that support is way less now and were I to go I'd most likely keep my mouth shut.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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nibbler
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

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Minyan Man wrote: 31 Mar 2022, 10:08 Is it just my only ward where the older "true blue" members are silent or only reply to the lessons when called upon?

Is there an unwritten rule that lesson discussions should be open to only new members, where possible?
It's definitely not just your ward and I don't think there's any unwritten rule. All I can do is answer your question from my perspective and from where I'm sitting I think people are just bored with the lessons, even the most orthodox believing members.

I think people are silent unless called upon because most of the questions are geared towards very specific responses and people are either tired of regurgitating them or they're afraid of saying the wrong thing and looking like they don't know the answers in front of others.

I've found that it's hard getting any discussion going at church. I'm not sure why that is other than the material fails to capture people's interest.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
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LDS_Scoutmaster
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

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nibbler wrote: 30 Mar 2022, 12:42 I think a 5 minute conversation with a family member should be more rewarding and fulfilling than 60 minutes at church.
I agree! And well said..
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

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nibbler wrote: 31 Mar 2022, 11:58 I think people are silent unless called upon because most of the questions are geared towards very specific responses and people are either tired of regurgitating them or they're afraid of saying the wrong thing and looking like they don't know the answers in front of others.
I know I'm silent a lot because the canned Sunday School answers just don't work for me. I like open discourse and discussions, but I also understand that the teacher has an agenda and doesn't want to go too far off topic. We also have a few people that as I would put it like to hear themselves talk. They are the ones that usually answer the questions and take up most of the time.
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AmyJ
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

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nibbler wrote: 31 Mar 2022, 11:58 I think people are silent unless called upon because most of the questions are geared towards very specific responses and people are either tired of regurgitating them or they're afraid of saying the wrong thing and looking like they don't know the answers in front of others.

I've found that it's hard getting any discussion going at church. I'm not sure why that is other than the material fails to capture people's interest.
As a RS teacher and observer for a long time, I have a few observations to contribute (and they overlap with points already made a bit sometimes):
  • Class Size - The larger format of having 20+ students in Gospel Doctrine requires either a) breakdown in to smaller groups (with the quality of the thoughts being shared at risk) and/or b) a "lecture" (of unknown content) with some "call and response" stanzas.
  • Lesson Plans, Whose Agenda? - For a good year or so as a RS teacher, I chose my own talks from the list. Eventually, my RS President let me know that the "presidency" was supposed to be choosing the talks (with my "input"). They were nice about it, and I was able to pre-emptively provide a list of talks I could teach on that they rubber-stamped, and I set boundaries on what talks they wanted that I couldn't teach. But I am a "bossy" assertive female who was reading her Brene Brown and who insists on "Win-Win" situations - I also wasn't afraid to spend my social capital on topics - and I had an above average amount of social capital because I am located in a small branch.
  • Lesson Plans, The Teacher - Our teacher trainings focused on "connecting to the text", "connecting to church principles", and "connecting to the students" - they were not practical tips about managing the teacher/student conversational balance, inducing thinking, or about planning inclusive lesson plans. Also, there was no information on the concept "less (talk from the teacher)" is "more (conversation from the group)". Most of the best advice I got on how to be a better gospel doctrine teacher came from Silent Dawning in this forum.
  • "Safety"/Time/Motivation Factors - The lessons took 1-4 hours 2x a month (which I found the time for) and a few weeks of "in the back of my mind" processing - some women didn't have that kind of time. I was motivated to create inclusive lessons because I trying to include myself and knew how hard it was to be included (not left out of malice, just accidently excluded) - and that matters. I proactively set boundaries to keep myself socially safe - including also knowing how to exit gracefully if needed.
  • Connecting the Group to the Writer - I insisted on including at least 1 quote a from a female general authority for every general conference talk I gave. In part because they are our leaders, and because we don't hear their words (for us sisters) as often as we hear words for the general audience. I think it mattered. Another example is that from comments on this board, efforts to connect the students to the groups who wrote the text (History, Group Customs etc.) are appreciated here. This is an important step.
When I was well-prepared with some questions and general directions the topic could go - and the topic was really important AND relevant to my students - that is when I got the most classroom participation. The best classroom discussions I had were a 2 part series on suicide, depression, and mental health from a talk given by Sister Aburto. There were several times just before COVID where I didn't prepare as much, and where I was finding fewer "common ground" talking points where the class ended up in those awkward silences and the rambling, less helpful comment students got carried away.
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by Minyan Man »

I am coming to the realization that it's not the church, it's not the lessons, teacher or my lack of participation that causes me
to be bored. The solution lies within me (or each of us). It is my responsibility. I've read from a number of you on this
site who are participating in other religious organizations, charitable organizations, etc. in an effort to be inspired, fulfilled,
or spiritually feed. I applaud what you're doing outside of the formal church & I would love to read more about what you're
doing.

Life within the LDS church is very interesting. On the one hand, we declare to the world that this is the church designed, organized
and administered according to the will of God. Then in the execution of the programs, they can be uninspiring & boring.
I really hate being this judgmental. So now, I have to make a decision: what should I be doing to be inspired, fulfilled and
spiritually feed? (What I'm doing now isn't working.)
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Ilovechrist77
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Re: I am slowly becoming depressed about attending church...

Post by Ilovechrist77 »

Minyan Man, I glad you posted this because I'm planning on going back to church myself. I was inactive the entire time the COVID was in full swing, but I have a calling as a ward missionary that seems attention. Luckily, I'm good friends with my ward mission leader who's a very kind, laid-back man. Since my ward is in a small town in northern Illinois, it tends to be generally laid back as well. I would like to get more active in church, since after praying about it a few times, I feel the Lord keeps telling to eventually go back. I love to take the sacrament, even if sometimes I don't always like feel blessing or passing it. For some reason it's hard for me to feel the Spirit as strongly as when I just take it. I seem to have an easier time talking to God when I'm sitting still during the sacrament than when I'm moving around and doing other things. I don't know why that it. The talks can be hit or miss, just like they can be for me in stake conference or General Conference. Since I'm ward missionary and become a more nuanced member of the years, it's more challenging for me to share the gospel with others in ways that are more authentic to me. And my other issue is that I don't how I'm going to be able team from certain teach from certain sections of the Preach My Gospel Manual when called upon by the full-time missionaries when I'll come across certain doctrinal or historical statements that I don't agree with. So, my friend, I wish I can tell you a lot. The only thing I could say it maybe supplement your spirituality in the church in some ways. Try to find other things that can also bring you joy. That's good advice for me too. I hope and pray you'll somehow work it out.
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