Rape vs Virtue

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SamBee
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Rape vs Virtue

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OBVIOUS TRIGGER WARNINGS APPLY

I was watching this documentary on Ted Bundy, the notorious serial killer, and it mentions how he was active around the UofU. In fact at around half way through this interview, a woman mentions how she was attacked by Bundy and survived (she jumped in a river and was swept downstream.) She also mentions how she was LDS and how she felt she had to keep her virtue, as if being raped somehow stole it from her. For me this goes totally against the free agency we teach.

https://youtu.be/x3Kilr271Xk
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."
Old-Timer
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Re: Rape vs Virtue

Post by Old-Timer »

Virtue comes from the root meaning "strength".

We have destroyed the original meaning with our acceptance of the "apostate" meaning focused on sexual purity - and nearly exclusively, in practical terms, on women. The idea that it is better to be dead than to accept rape passively is a horrible outgrowth of that Victorian idea.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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SamBee
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Re: Rape vs Virtue

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To be fair to the woman she did manage an effective escape plan. He kept smothering her, so she passed out, but she managed to haul herself out of there and.used a river to get away from him... But it is sad that someone could be held guilty for an unwanted attack. She was stupid to get in the car with him, I suppose, but that still doesn't justify it.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."
Roy
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Re: Rape vs Virtue

Post by Roy »

Historically there have been serious double standards against women for virginity.

In essence, for large portions of human history a wife was seen as a form of property. If a man raped a married woman, he would have stolen from the husband. If a married woman had sex with someone not her husband, she would have stolen from her husband.

If a man raped an unmarried woman then it was an affront to the father and the family. Who would marry her now that she was no longer a virgin? According to a verse in the bible this rapist could help atone for his crime by marrying her himself.

I believe that these understandings are a corruption of the true value that our Heavenly Parents place upon their daughters. Although there have been vast improvements, we have still not managed to filter out all the corrupted ideas of the past.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Roy
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Re: Rape vs Virtue

Post by Roy »

SamBee wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 01:03 She was stupid to get in the car with him, I suppose, but that still doesn't justify it.
I think we should be really careful with statements like this. I have gotten in cars with others. I suppose almost any of those instances could have turned out horribly. Does that mean that I am/was stupid each and every time I allowed myself to be vulnerable? Is it ok for me because I am a man? I do not like where this train of thought leads.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Old-Timer
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Re: Rape vs Virtue

Post by Old-Timer »

We now live in a time of Uber and other ride services that until very recently were not nearly as well vetted as traditional taxi services - and even the older taxi services had serious issues. Just saying.

When I was much younger, I once said that a woman should not be blamed for being raped if she walked down a darkly lit street at night - but that we shouldn't be surprised if it happened. I know much better now. Even that statement implicitly puts the responsibility on her - even though I didn't intend to place it there. The implication is that she simply should go to her destination in some other way. However, MANY people have no other way to go where they have to go. It literally is not possible for them. Assuming they can avoid that darkly lit street isn't necessarily sexist - but it absolutely does show my unconscious privilege, since I have the luxury of knowing I could find a different way (or not realizing consciously that I would not hint at criticism of myself if I did it).

The core issue for this post, in my mind, is the mistaken notion that someone loses their virtue if they are raped - and that depends entirely on how someone defines "virtue" and to what extent they value "purity" and "virginity". I know people who have been assaulted and, as a result, have lost a degree of "strength" (at the very least until they process the trauma and have a chance to return to normal strength), and there is a linguistic argument for losing "purity" if that is defined very narrowly in sexual terms, and rape certainly can end virginity - but tying "virginity" and "virtue" so tightly together that the latter is lost when the former ends overlooks the difference between the words even if they share the same root.

"Virginity" is a derivative of "virtue", and that difference is important. Virginity is one manifestation or type or subset of virtue; it is not virtue itself. Virginity is important only to the extent a particular society makes it important - and that varies radically among societies, even those that value virtue highly.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Old-Timer
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Re: Rape vs Virtue

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I think it is important also to point out that virginity is lost in cases of rape specifically because the person who is raped is not as strong as the rapist.

Someone who is not as strong physically does not lose strength because they are overpowered by someone who is stronger physically. They simply were not as strong physically in the first place.

Saying someone who is raped loses virtue ("strength") because of the rape is setting just one more double standard that weighs more heavily on women than on men, speaking generally - and that only increases the damage done by the rape itself.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Rape vs Virtue

Post by Roy »

Old-Timer wrote: 02 Aug 2021, 10:55 When I was much younger, I once said that a woman should not be blamed for being raped if she walked down a darkly lit street at night - but that we shouldn't be surprised if it happened. I know much better now. Even that statement implicitly puts the responsibility on her - even though I didn't intend to place it there. The implication is that she simply should go to her destination in some other way. However, MANY people have no other way to go where they have to go. It literally is not possible for them. Assuming they can avoid that darkly lit street isn't necessarily sexist - but it absolutely does show my unconscious privilege, since I have the luxury of knowing I could find a different way (or not realizing consciously that I would not hint at criticism of myself if I did it).
Thank you Old-Timer. We humans are sometimes motivated to blame the victim. There can be multiple competing motivations for this. I believe that one motivation is to maintain a false sense of security about ourselves and our loved ones. The thought that I (or my children) could be brutally murdered at multiple points throughout the day is too terrifying to contemplate. Thus when something like this happens to someone else we tend to distance ourselves by thinking that the victims were careless somehow and that we, ourselves, would not be as careless.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Rape vs Virtue

Post by Roy »

I would love for us (as humans) to discontinue using virtue in the sexual "purity" sense.

I would like for humans to only use virtue as the primary definition. Strengths, values, righteousness, qualities, ethicalness!
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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SamBee
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Re: Rape vs Virtue

Post by SamBee »

Roy wrote: 01 Aug 2021, 18:15
SamBee wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 01:03 She was stupid to get in the car with him, I suppose, but that still doesn't justify it.
I think we should be really careful with statements like this. I have gotten in cars with others. I suppose almost any of those instances could have turned out horribly. Does that mean that I am/was stupid each and every time I allowed myself to be vulnerable? Is it ok for me because I am a man? I do not like where this train of thought leads.
We've all done stupid things, that doesn't mean we should do them. I've found myself in dangerous situations a few times through my own fault. On one occasion, I just had to run as fast as my legs would take me. Luckily it was an easy route back to safety.

The woman didn't know Bundy at all, so I think that is mistake no. 1. I think we do at least teach our youngsters to be careful with these things. I know practically anyone can turn out nasty, but you've got to be especially careful of guys who arr an unknown quantity.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."
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