LDS Daily - 5 Crucial Questions

[Roy]

LDS Daily Watchlist: What to Ask Yourself Before Leaving the Church

https://www.ldsdaily.com/entertainment/ ... ng-church/

This is a promotion from LDS Daily of a video from Kyle from "Rock N Roll Fireside." The LDS Daily Watchlist "highlights the best videos from Latter-day Saint creators and organizations. From inspiring messages to uplifting music and vlogs, this collection shares faith-filled content to inform and inspire."
Below are my notes on this 14 minute video. It is not a word for word transcript, but I have tried to present the questions and arguments just as Kyle did without distorting his words or adding my own commentary.

Are you running away from something or are you running toward something?

Have you found more light and truth somewhere else OR do you not like your Bishop or your ward or some historical information that you have stumbled upon. Comparison to people interviewing for a job that are badmouthing their previous employers. If you are unhappy in one place, chances are that you will be unhappy in that other place too. Some will address their issues and work to improve them, others will just run away. If you are running away from something you will always be running away from something.

Why are others staying despite this knowledge?

You may have discovered something that is rocking your world. However, these ideas and attacks against the church are not new there are many people in the church that know about this stuff, how can they stay with that knowledge? Perhaps what you are struggling with is the concept of faith. It can be important to distinguish between problem of church and problems of faith. Faith means continuing on and honoring covenants despite not knowing and understanding everything. Rather than praying for understanding, maybe you should pray for faith.

Have you examined the negative sources that you might be consuming?

Ex-Mos and Anti-Mos don't care about you. They are interested in money and fame. Do they increase hope and light and edification? Comparison to Dr. Kevorkian. Anti-Mormon Ex-Mos are spiritual Dr. Kevorkians. All they specialize in is spiritual death.

If you were to leave the church right now, what's the first thing that you would do?

If your thinking that you would do something that you are currently not allowed to do then perhaps you have manufactured a faith crisis in order to justify breaking covenants. This is temptation and you should work your way through it.

How much are you reading the Book of Mormon right now?

Are you giving the BoM equal time? If not then you have already made your decision.

[nibbler]

Roy, would you prefer my reply to keep the gloves on or is it okay if I were to take the gloves off?

Playing nice for a moment, each one of the five crucial questions assumes fault in the person leaving.

1. You're just running away from something.
2. You have a lack of faith.
3. You're listening to people that are using you.
4. You just want to sin and not feel guilt.
5. You're not reading the Book of Mormon enough.

What's the incentive for people to stay in a community that views them in that light?

I thought we were past most of these things. This from 2013:

One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”

Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.

Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.

I think my fundamental issue with lists like this is that we're more interested in telling people why they're leaving and not interested in listening to what the people that are leaving are saying.

No one is perfect but projecting fault on others for leaving robs us of the opportunity for introspection to see how we as a church can grow. In other words, less guilting and shaming people into coming back and more making the church a place people naturally want to come back to.

That's my gloves on response.

[Minyan Man]

nibbler, where did you get the Elder Uchtdorf quote? I would like to read the full article, talk or book.
I enjoy & get insight in everything he talks about.

Thanks!

[nibbler]

That was from Uchtdorf's talk "Come, Join with Us". The talk got boiled down to doubt your doubts by many but the talk has a lot more to offer than just that.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

[Minyan Man]

Thank you!

[AmyJ]

1. As humans, we are all running away from the human common fears of meaninglessness, loneliness, death, and uncertainty and encountering them in new environments. Some of us use the shield of faith/dogma/ritual/doctrine to do so, some of us clothe ourselves in resilience and belief in humanity. What really matters is what and how we burn out whatever needs to be burned off in our journeys.

2. Circumstances become the "last straw" for an individual. A piece of knowledge can "hit differently" one time and start a catalyst of events.

3. One's religious affiliation does not define the quality of the human or the collection of humans. We also believe in agency - so if you are consuming stuff that isn't good for your soul, it's in part on you to find better stuff to consume:)

4. My first "acts" of leaving the church community were self-authorization to follow my moral compass rather then the moral compass of the church and the church culture. I guess technically it was allowing myself not to tune into Zoom church (technically giving up to the demands of my family who wanted my attention at the time of church services). I think that from the church perspective, the most "sinful" thing I have done is not take my child to church, push the church doctrine teaching, or push to get her baptized. That, and being honest in my lack of faith in God and Jesus Christ. I swear sometimes now too (but only at objects).

5. When I was in the Pathways program and going through my faith transition, we had to read the BoM x amount of times or whatever. I actually had more anger issues on the days I did the required reading. I would strategize in the hours before going to class about what I could and could not say to prevent "outing" myself as a person a in faith transition.


My main problem with these types of conversations is that all the focus is on the imperfections of the individual, but not on the imperfections of the leaders, the culture, or the doctrine until 50-70 years after the fact.

[Roy]

Sometimes we get something from within Mormondom that is compassionate and balanced on the subject of staying or leaving the LDS faith and it feels like the community is evolving. Then we get something like this and I am reminded that evolution happens over long periods of time and with many dead ends along the way. [side note - evolution is not a change from a worse state to a better state but rather from a state less well adapted to the environment to a state better adapted to the environment. The LDS church finds itself in a changing environment and is evolving to adapt.]

I very much agree that each of the questions is very leading and assumes fault with the leaver. It really makes the leaver out to be the bad guy.

As a business person that has conducted many interviews, I was particularly concerned with the framing of "are you running away from something or are you running toward something." It is true that it is a red flag if someone discloses in an interview how much they can't wait to get away from their present employer. However, I think the comparison or metaphor to someone leaving the church is extremely limited.

What if the work environment was toxic or hostile? What if the company misrepresented itself? What if the terms of employment and your job description was not fully disclosed? What if you signed the employment contract when you were 8 years old? What if the job is exhausting and has a negative impact on your mental state?

Should a person only leave something bad if they have something better lined up? And if someone does feel deceived by their former company, might they feel a duty to warn others about their experience? Should whistleblowers not be a thing?

I believe that the LDS church and the environment and culture can "work wonderfully" for some people in some parts of their lives. I also believe that the LDS church teachings, environments, and culture can be harmful and toxic for other people. For those that are feeling harmed, they should absolutely make the choice that protects their well being.

[DarkJedi]

Before reading any of the responses my first reaction was what the responses say - all of this blames the individual leaving and puts no responsibility on other factors - the church itself (teachings/doctrine, etc.) or individuals in the church. While I think things like "being offended" are often used as excuses (because it's easy) years of experience here would indicate that such is hardly ever the real reason. But the church and membership doesn't want to hear - and can't handle - the truth of why people really leave. Additionally, underlying in the article is the message about that which has generally failed most of us - more prayer, more reading the BoM, more temple. Those are not the answer to our problems.

[Old-Timer]

I think most people leave / disengage / become less actively involved for a very simple, common reason:

For some reason(s), they no longer feel like they fit/belong enough to cause them to stay / remain actively involved.

I know that might seem too simplistic for many people, but I really do think it is that simple.