I don't get the purpose of faith in religious-oriented things we can't see

[Old-Timer]

Visions were common in his time. They, in no way, warranted special attention or divine mandate claims.

New scriptures weren’t. They did warrant special attention. They were tangible. They were available to everyone. They were special - for good and bad. They were polarizing and brought acceptance and praise by some but attention, persecution, rejection, and scorn by many more - especially when they were used to say, “You are wrong and not God-ordained.”

It wasn’t the First Vision that brought widespread attention, rejection, and success; it was the Book of Mormon. Also, Joseph didn’t use it as a proof text to bolster doctrine, like we tend to do now; rather, he used it as a spiritual converter. The difference is important. Frankly, I don’t like the first use, and I do like the second one.

[AmyJ]

It wasn’t the First Vision that brought widespread attention, rejection, and success; it was the Book of Mormon. Also, Joseph didn’t use it as a proof text to bolster doctrine, like we tend to do now; rather, he used it as a spiritual converter. The difference is important. Frankly, I don’t like the first use, and I do like the second one.

So when you describe "spiritual converter" are you talking about more of a thematic focus of "what if" (to generate change) vs "this is" (to provide authoritarian grounding/doctrine)?

Granted, JS's bread and butter was producing scripture and making a lot of "this is" statements (and it could be argued "what if" statements clearly disguised as "this is" statements to live up to the divine calling he envisioned from God).

[Minyan Man]

Wouldn't it be interesting to sit down with JS & ask him specific questions about what he experienced?
We can read all the historical documents & research about him. In the end, nothing compares to a
face to face conversation.

In the end, all we have is our own personal beliefs & convictions.
There is no doubt in my mind, he was a very interesting & special person.
Imagine (today) trying to write something like the BOM & having the contents hold up for 194 years.

[AmyJ]

Wouldn't it be interesting to sit down with JS & ask him specific questions about what he experienced?
We can read all the historical documents & research about him. In the end, nothing compares to a
face to face conversation.

In the end, all we have is our own personal beliefs & convictions.
There is no doubt in my mind, he was a very interesting & special person.
Imagine (today) trying to write something like the BOM & having the contents hold up for 194 years.

I'm not sure that I could sit down with him and do the conversation justice.
Now a conversation with Emma.... that would either be a very special or very mundane conversation.

My mom taught me that "Ginger Rogers did every step Fred Astaire did - backwards and in high heels" from the time I was young because she felt that Fred's skill and persona overshadowed Ginger's proficiency. It's one of the thought that I use to double-check what I am paying attention/assigning meaning to.

[DarkJedi]

It wasn’t the First Vision that brought widespread attention, rejection, and success; it was the Book of Mormon. Also, Joseph didn’t use it as a proof text to bolster doctrine, like we tend to do now; rather, he used it as a spiritual converter. The difference is important. Frankly, I don’t like the first use, and I do like the second one.

So when you describe "spiritual converter" are you talking about more of a thematic focus of "what if" (to generate change) vs "this is" (to provide authoritarian grounding/doctrine)?

Granted, JS's bread and butter was producing scripture and making a lot of "this is" statements (and it could be argued "what if" statements clearly disguised as "this is" statements to live up to the divine calling he envisioned from God).

I'm not going to answer for OT, but I will give my interpretation of what he meant because I think we're on the same page.

Back in the day the Book of Mormon was sold or sometimes given. Books were often handed around in those days because they weren't common and many people couldn't afford them (these are reasons most people, apparently including Joseph Smith, learned to read from the Bible - it was the only book most people had). As a related aside, Joseph took a huge loss on the $3000 printing/publication of the book (as did Martin Harris, much to the consternation of Mrs. Harris). That book was not divided into chapters and verses as we know it today, and missionaries didn't turn to Moroni and talk about the promise (which is really to the Lamanites anyway). While some copies were distributed by missionaries, a fair number (handed around, etc.) were not and thus the book spoke for itself. With some frequency I say I don't believe the BoM is what it claims to be (gold plates, story of ancient Americans, etc.) but it is a book about faith in Jesus Christ and can and does bring people closer to God and Christ. It does this all on its own, no Moroni's promise needed. Many of those early church leaders were converted by the book alone (including Brigham Young), having never met a missionary or apostle or Joseph Smith. It does have a power all its own, and I think as OT intimates we sometimes diminish that power by moving the focus away from it.

[Minyan Man]

Back in the day the Book of Mormon was sold or sometimes given. Books were often handed around in those days because they weren't common and many people couldn't afford them (these are reasons most people, apparently including Joseph Smith, learned to read from the Bible - it was the only book most people had). As a related aside, Joseph took a huge loss on the $3000 printing/publication of the book (as did Martin Harris, much to the consternation of Mrs. Harris). That book was not divided into chapters and verses as we know it today, and missionaries didn't turn to Moroni and talk about the promise (which is really to the Lamanites anyway). While some copies were distributed by missionaries, a fair number (handed around, etc.) were not and thus the book spoke for itself. With some frequency I say I don't believe the BoM is what it claims to be (gold plates, story of ancient Americans, etc.) but it is a book about faith in Jesus Christ and can and does bring people closer to God and Christ. It does this all on its own, no Moroni's promise needed. Many of those early church leaders were converted by the book alone (including Brigham Young), having never met a missionary or apostle or Joseph Smith. It does have a power all its own, and I think as OT intimates we sometimes diminish that power by moving the focus away from it.

I hope this isn't off topic. About 40 yrs ago, I was at a rare book dealers shop & I asked him if he ever was in contact with a 1st edition BOM.
He said no but a friend had one & it was for sale. To make the story short, I bought the book for $3500. It was in perfect condition. I kept it at
home & I rarely opened it. I was always worried that I would damage it. So, I sold it to someone in my ward for the same price I paid for it.
The lesson for me was: it belonged in a museum & what good is it if you can't or won't use it.

Recently I looked online & there are copies for sale today at about $100,000.
I always suspected that someone found it in college library & walked off with it. The price seemed too low for 1984.

[DarkJedi]

Back in the day the Book of Mormon was sold or sometimes given. Books were often handed around in those days because they weren't common and many people couldn't afford them (these are reasons most people, apparently including Joseph Smith, learned to read from the Bible - it was the only book most people had). As a related aside, Joseph took a huge loss on the $5000 printing/publication of the book (as did Martin Harris, much to the consternation of Mrs. Harris). That book was not divided into chapters and verses as we know it today, and missionaries didn't turn to Moroni and talk about the promise (which is really to the Lamanites anyway). While some copies were distributed by missionaries, a fair number (handed around, etc.) were not and thus the book spoke for itself. With some frequency I say I don't believe the BoM is what it claims to be (gold plates, story of ancient Americans, etc.) but it is a book about faith in Jesus Christ and can and does bring people closer to God and Christ. It does this all on its own, no Moroni's promise needed. Many of those early church leaders were converted by the book alone (including Brigham Young), having never met a missionary or apostle or Joseph Smith. It does have a power all its own, and I think as OT intimates we sometimes diminish that power by moving the focus away from it.

I hope this isn't off topic. About 40 yrs ago, I was at a rare book dealers shop & I asked him if he ever was in contact with a 1st edition BOM.
He said no but a friend had one & it was for sale. To make the story short, I bought the book for $3500. It was in perfect condition. I kept it at
home & I rarely opened it. I was always worried that I would damage it. So, I sold it to someone in my ward for the same price I paid for it.
The lesson for me was: it belonged in a museum & what good is it if you can't or won't use it.

Recently I looked online & there are copies for sale today at about $100,000.
I always suspected that someone found it in college library & walked off with it. The price seemed too low for 1984.

Original copies of the BoM are certainly rare. The only ones I have seen are in museums. A quick Google search says the church believes there are about 700 left, which is more than I thought. Living where I do I always check out book sales in the off chance fantasy I might find one some grandma had in the attic that belonged to her grandma or something. Alas, no such luck.

[Old-Timer]

DarkJedi explained my comment as well as I could have.

To return to the original post’s focus, I see faith as what motivates discovery and non-organic change (change that wouldn’t happen naturally).

It takes belief in the unseen to do the unseeable.

[SilentDawning]

DarkJedi explained my comment as well as I could have.

To return to the original post’s focus, I see faith as what motivates discovery and non-organic change (change that wouldn’t happen naturally).

It takes belief in the unseen to do the unseeable.

I see that explanation -- as I said in my Opening Post, I get faith is necessary to motivate action, but when it comes to the facts of eternal life, that's where I am fuzzy on the reliability and necessity of faith. There are so many people who have faith in their own religion, and they can't all be right.

[Old-Timer]

Yep, there is no certainty, since so many people are certain of different views, which means it all is based on faith.

Even atheists rely on faith, in a very real way, which makes faith perhaps THE most unique, important aspect of being human.