Just when it was all going so well

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Carburettor
Posts: 159
Joined: 10 Jul 2023, 01:49

Re: Just when it was all going so well

Post by Carburettor »

Roy wrote: 24 Jul 2023, 16:41 Lastly, I would avoid the term "so-called" because it seems pejorative and is often used with a mocking tone.
Please accept my apology for this, Roy. It was fuelled by my simmering frustrations and disenfranchisement, which will become clearer in due course. I am happy to edit my post to remove the offending adjective. To complete the removal, we should then both delete all references to it to avoid confusion for any third party. If, however, you prefer the comment(s) to remain to indicate forum practice, I will take the hit and try to avoid re-offending.

Perhaps the title of a new thread could be "Can individuals who identify as LGBTQ+ truly find peace in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?"
Roy wrote: 24 Jul 2023, 16:41 You can refer to public figures as you already did with the 1995 article by Dallin H Oaks about "same gender attraction."
OK, so I'm still unsure about this. What about referring to information in the public domain (if you dig deeply enough) that reflects badly on specific senior priesthood leaders (living or deceased) in a 21st-century context? It is easy to say, "hang on, you can't evaluate decades-old teachings in the context of our current day," but what if, in my case, the negative ramifications of those teachings have only recently become apparent to me? To consign them to history is to invalidate their aggregated effects on me (and others). I have searched the past to understand my present, and I have subsequently found myself reminded of many troublesome things. Basically, I have emerged from the figurative cave in which I felt obliged to hide for decades only to be confronted by a tsunami of pejorative comments that shaped who I have become. I was thinking I would need to obfuscate the identity of those individuals. I wish to avoid drifting into ad hominem territory.

Please assess the following illustration. Several sections of a certain GA's talk delivered in a past General Conference have been redacted in the transcript found on churchofjesuschrist.org because they contain content that is now considered inaccurate and offensive. Most Church members would probably consider the comments to be unfortunate, but for me they represent a single strand of damaging emotional conditioning — so hiding them only adds to the injustice. For someone in my position, it feels like gaslighting. The video of the GA's talk hasn't been edited, however, so the content is readily verifiable.

The purpose of examining past comments isn't to question the integrity of individuals who believed they were offering inspired counsel; that is for them to deal with on judgement day. Rather, it is to unravel the tangle of unresolved negative outcomes that such comments caused. We can easily say, "let's forget the past and move on," but that leaves unaddressed the damage that continues to drive people like me from the Church. I feel we must be honest and own it — and accept the repercussions to allow the healing process to begin. Until then, it smacks of an aggressor silencing its victims.
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DarkJedi
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Re: Just when it was all going so well

Post by DarkJedi »

Carburettor wrote: 24 Jul 2023, 15:18 In 21st-century western secular society, accepting oneself is what it's all about. However, that doesn't work for someone of faith in respect of complications relating to gender and identity. I fully accept that I may be barking up the wrong tree, hopelessly misguided, a wolf in sheep's clothing, or some other bad actor, but it is my sincere belief that it is currently impossible for someone like me to find peace. I'd like to explain what has brought me to this conclusion in the past few years so that maybe you or someone else can apply logic to point out where I'm going wrong. All I want is to experience joy in living the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I already know what is involved in doing all the "right" things. I can't now remember if I mentioned that I've been serving in stake priesthood leadership since 2019 after serving in ward and stake leadership since the 1980s (which is what you get for being a reliable member in the UK), so I would consider myself to be reasonably well informed in terms of being a faithful, committed, covenant-keeping member of the Church.
I think the idea that one can't find peace in the Gospel of Jesus Christ while being Gay (or LGBTQIA+) is erroneous. I think this error in thinking comes about because the church and church members so often conflate the church with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are not the same thing. The Gospel has always existed and will always exist. The CoJCoLDS has only been in existence since 1830 (a mere blip in an eternal sense), while it could be argued the church of God/Christ/The Firstborn (and several other monikers) has existed longer but still not as long as the Gospel. The CoJCoLDS does not have a monopoly on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Since Jesus himself walked the earth there have always been believers and practicers of the Gospel (and the Doctrine of Christ as outlined by Jesus himself). And since Adam & Eve there have always been believers in God the Father. The CoJCoLDS helps people to practice the Gospel, as do other churches. The dichotomy comes in here when we recognize the difference in the Gospel and the church. I am of the belief that because of church policies (as opposed to doctrine or policies taught as doctrine) LGBTQIA+ people find it very difficult to find peace in the CoJCoLDS. They can however find peace in the Gospel. Those that have found peace in the Gospel have recognized that God still loves them and always has. This is in contrast to the church's teachings relating to worthiness. I firmly believe that in the eyes of loving Heavenly Parents and in the eyes of Jesus Christ there is no such thing as unworthiness. Jesus repeatedly demonstrated this in the four gospels.
Carburettor wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 01:23 Perhaps the title of a new thread could be "Can individuals who identify as LGBTQ+ truly find peace in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?"
I support a thread like you propose, and it's probably better to start a new thread than to continue to play this out in the introduction area so it increases the likelihood that others will see it. We recognize the vast majority of visitors to the site (our beloved lurkers) never formally join or if they do never post. That's perfectly OK. Much like the church itself, we have far greater membership numbers than we have actual participants.

Side note about addressing others outside the forum. The rule about addressing others, but not quoting others. We quote all the time and doing so is perfectly acceptable with citation (links preferred). We can also express out personal agreement, disagreement, or analysis of what someone has stated. Directly addressing someone outside the forum is taboo. We also should refrain from addressing accusations against others outside the forum ("Elder Soandso is a bad guy because some girl once said he called her sweetie.") Ans related to that we frown on second hand quotes - the ETB voting thing is an example of that one.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
Posts: 7268
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Just when it was all going so well

Post by Roy »

Carburettor wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 01:23 I am happy to edit my post to remove the offending adjective.
Not necessary but thanks for offering.
Carburettor wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 01:23 Perhaps the title of a new thread could be "Can individuals who identify as LGBTQ+ truly find peace in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?"
As noted by Dark Jedi, if your intent is to discuss membership in the LDS church specifically then it might be better to title the new thread ""Can individuals who identify as LGBTQ+ truly find peace as active members of the LDS Church?" I also support creating this new topic.
DarkJedi wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 05:32 Side note about addressing others outside the forum. The rule about addressing others, but not quoting others. We quote all the time and doing so is perfectly acceptable with citation (links preferred). We can also express out personal agreement, disagreement, or analysis of what someone has stated. Directly addressing someone outside the forum is taboo.
DJ is correct. The rule against addressing others outside the forum prevents people from writing something like, "Hey Mr. President, are you listening? This message is for you!..."
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Carburettor
Posts: 159
Joined: 10 Jul 2023, 01:49

Re: Just when it was all going so well

Post by Carburettor »

DarkJedi wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 05:32 I think the idea that one can't find peace in the Gospel of Jesus Christ while being Gay (or LGBTQIA+) is erroneous. I think this error in thinking comes about because the church and church members so often conflate the church with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are not the same thing.
Thank you, DarkJedi. I took aim in the wrong direction as you have pointed out. Indeed, I reached this conclusion myself in recent years — having regurgitated for decades clichés like "I know without a shadow of a doubt that the Church is true." I now squirm when I hear fully grown adults repeat that same mantra each testimony meeting. As it happens, I was recently asked to share my testimony in a stake council meeting, and I made everyone uncomfortable by beginning with something like "I no longer believe the Church is true." To their relief, I made the assertion that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true — and I have a testimony of that — and the Church is simply a vehicle that attempts to drive us in that direction to the best of its ability (or that of its leaders).
Last edited by Carburettor on 25 Jul 2023, 09:28, edited 1 time in total.
Carburettor
Posts: 159
Joined: 10 Jul 2023, 01:49

Re: Just when it was all going so well

Post by Carburettor »

Roy wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 08:44 As noted by Dark Jedi, if your intent is to discuss membership in the LDS church specifically then it might be better to title the new thread "Can individuals who identify as LGBTQ+ truly find peace as active members of the LDS Church?" I also support creating this new topic.
Wonderful. I will proceed on that basis.
Roy wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 08:44 DJ is correct. The rule against addressing others outside the forum prevents people from writing something like, "Hey Mr. President, are you listening? This message is for you!..."
Thank you. I am still a little apprehensive about what is acceptable to post, so I trust you will kindly help me with a course correction if I step out of line. I'm simply searching for answers.
eni12
Posts: 1
Joined: 18 Sep 2023, 07:05

Re: Just when it was all going so well

Post by eni12 »

Carburettor wrote: 14 Jul 2023, 06:48 Hi. I have reached a precarious position, and the future looks bleak.

I am a product of zealous adherence to Church principles, policies, and programmes (warning: non-US spellings, sorry). My entire life has been centred on the Church and anchored to it. I consider myself to have a deep-rooted testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that has been forged through six decades of determination and endurance, and I have served in priesthood leadership pretty much my entire adult life — with the past four years being spent in stake leadership.

All that being said, my world view began to change a few years ago on account of some things I was instructed only to believe and never question — but which the Church by its own actions caused me to question in my mid-fifties. With increasing concern, I feel I have no choice but to step away when Oaks replaces Nelson (sadly, he won't live forever — so to speak) because I now realise I will become a hypocrite if I remain. Whether I will return at some point will depend on what happens in due course.

For the record, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool, second-generation member in the UK. Seminary graduate. Served a full-time mission to Canada. University graduate. My patriarchal blessing assured me that a wife was waiting — and that we would have children. So I've now been married and sealed for 27 years to my returned-missionary wife, and we have four adult children — each of whom has pretty-much rejected our example. My patriarchal blessing also tells me I will serve a lengthy mission with my wife at a time when people recognise the close return of the Saviour.

So what's the problem? Well, I'm technically part of the LGBTQIA+ cohort — and the paradigm in which I put my trust has turned out to be a disturbing mirage with a toxic back-story. I'm now trying figure out what lies ahead.

Just so you don't get the wrong idea, I have remained covenant keeping from the get-go. I have no interest in liberalisation, same-sex marriage, or anything like that. I am simply troubled by what I perceive as duplicitous behaviour by senior priesthood leaders that continues to produce victims.

Worse yet, I seem to have ended up in a camp all by myself. I no longer believe what the Church OR secular society has to say in respect of gender and identity. As far as I can tell, neither offers anything more than the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

welcome mate , I am also new here.. thanks for introduction. Navigating the intersection of faith, identity, and societal changes can be incredibly challenging, especially when it feels like you're in a unique position or a camp of your own. I hope you find the peace and clarity you seek as you navigate this complex terrain:)
Carburettor
Posts: 159
Joined: 10 Jul 2023, 01:49

Re: Just when it was all going so well

Post by Carburettor »

eni12 wrote: 19 Sep 2023, 20:41 welcome mate , I am also new here.. thanks for introduction. Navigating the intersection of faith, identity, and societal changes can be incredibly challenging, especially when it feels like you're in a unique position or a camp of your own. I hope you find the peace and clarity you seek as you navigate this complex terrain:)
Welcome to you, too. It was beginning to feel like there were just six of us participating in the assorted threads on offer. I have pretty much thrashed the living daylights out of this particular topic in another thread — about whether those who identify as LGBTQ+ can truly feel at peace as active members of the Church. I concluded they cannot. More's the pity.

In general terms, both clarity and peace have proven to be elusive. Under scrutiny, the official position of the Church in respect of gender and identity turns out to be disingenuous while the position of secular society is devoid of morality and faith. Both positions, in my view, are therefore wrong. However, making such a claim outside of the confines of my own mind means I am technically apostate as well as making me sound like one of those embarrassing people who publicly oppose sustainings in conferences. That's not my style; I will quietly take my leave when Nelson pops his clogs.

Anyway, you must have arrived here for a reason; do please share.
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