The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Roy]

*spoiler-ish warning* A couple points of struggle for some characters closest to Jesus in the show is 'why is Jesus performing miracles for others but not me?' The answer that they end up getting from Jesus boils down to 'Do you have enough faith in me to trust that me not removing your difficulty/tragedy is what's best for you?"

Yeah. The song "Blessings" by Laura Story presents a similar concept. Sometimes you need these sorts of narratives in order to make meaning and purpose out of suffering and disappointment.

"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

The more jaded part of me looks at that and says, "Your just twisting the definition of the word blessing to fit whatever happens." I guess I am more forgiving of people needing to see God's hand in their personal lives and less forgiving off people trying to extract tithing payments from others with the promise of "blessings" in return.

I am curious about a messiah figure that doesn't perform miracles. If Jesus didn't do any miracles then how might our belief and thoughts about him change?

My wife and I don't have any children and it remains to be seen if we will (the clock's ticking). Should we be fortunate enough to have kids, I know I'll gain a new appreciation for parent/child sealings. And if my kids are anything like me, they probably won't feel the same.

Yeah, my actions are mostly about me and my needs and a lessor consideration about them and their needs. I will work on letting them go.

[AmyJ]

My wife and I don't have any children and it remains to be seen if we will (the clock's ticking). Should we be fortunate enough to have kids, I know I'll gain a new appreciation for parent/child sealings. And if my kids are anything like me, they probably won't feel the same.

I have thought about this a bit off and on.

The problem is that "humans need connection" and our theology teaches "Heavenly Parents supply all the divine connection needed - except they may need connections to Jesus Christ and maybe the Holy Ghost... all their other kids need to see the "perfect God"".

- It's not clear to anyone whether "there are divine block parties" for Gods to mingle and retreat from.

- Do you need "spirit children" to co-create stuff? I personally want to feel "connected" to my kids in the future - like we have our own private divine code, phone line, well something. I don't want them to be "divine yes people" or "junior partners in crime" if they are working in my area with me.

Do you absolutely even need your spouse? The number of fights that have been started when we decide to "renovate" part of our house give me pause on that front. [ And yes - I will absolutely have my "own space" with "my own design" if I get promoted and are given powers of creation in the universe].

- Part of our problem is that our theology and the paradigm that we inherited assigns "divine gender roles" that are based on our earthly experience (complete with sex hormones driving a lot of decisions).

[Carburettor]

As for what your adult daughter is going through, I am curious whether it was "processing out loud" feelings about her relationship with you, or just processing/revising her experiences in the past that the church experience presented to her by you doesn't work and she is figuring out "why" and "how" and "what she needs".

My daughter isn't yet a self-reliant adult; she's in her mid-twenties and still relies heavily on us for practical guidance from her home in another part of the country. She went through the Church system without positive non-family role models because there were (and still are) relatively few members where we live, and there were no church contemporaries with whom she could relate. Instead, she was seduced by social media influencers and the liberties accessible to her educational peers. She kinda went through the motions until a year of trying to make it work in a YSA ward at university, when she weighed up the merits of what she concluded were "normality and freedom of self-expression" compared with the "frumpy, culty obedience" she associated with her church experience.

For a couple of decades, we had ring-fenced our family within the tenets of our faith, but my wife and I had to progressively dismantle that fence to avoid entirely losing the relationship with our daughter. Could we have done things differently to achieve a different outcome? Who can say? Everyone processes life in their own unique way. We provided a gospel-centric home, yet all but one of our children eventually said, "Yeah, no thanks."

[AmyJ]

As for what your adult daughter is going through, I am curious whether it was "processing out loud" feelings about her relationship with you, or just processing/revising her experiences in the past that the church experience presented to her by you doesn't work and she is figuring out "why" and "how" and "what she needs".

My daughter isn't yet a self-reliant adult; she's in her mid-twenties and still relies heavily on us for practical guidance from her home in another part of the country. She went through the Church system without positive non-family role models because there were (and still are) relatively few members where we live, and there were no church contemporaries with whom she could relate. Instead, she was seduced by social media influencers and the liberties accessible to her educational peers. She kinda went through the motions until a year of trying to make it work in a YSA ward at university, when she weighed up the merits of what she concluded were "normality and freedom of self-expression" compared with the "frumpy, culty obedience" she associated with her church experience.

For a couple of decades, we had ring-fenced our family within the tenets of our faith, but my wife and I had to progressively dismantle that fence to avoid entirely losing the relationship with our daughter. Could we have done things differently to achieve a different outcome? Who can say? Everyone processes life in their own unique way. We provided a gospel-centric home, yet all but one of our children eventually said, "Yeah, no thanks."

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I read it on Friday and then re-read it today. It sounds like she has made a lot of choices (and/or maybe pivotal choices) that you are not comfortable with (and they may not be the best choices or one of several equally problematical choices). I am getting that from the words "still relies on us heavily", "seduced by social media influences and the liberties accessible", "went through the motions", "ring-fenced our family", and "gospel-centric".

A big challenge for me as a parent is challenging the assumption that "what my children do reflects my personal worth as an individual". It's in line with the scriptural parable Jesus gave about "who did sin? [Who was the flawed person who wasn't worthwhile and should be "blamed" for the situation they are in] the blind man or his parents?" Jesus gave an entirely different answer, "Neither - this happened that the Glory of God may be made manifest".

You provided some reasons you were not able to "protect your daughter" from "non-member influences" or "the influences of her peers". That makes sense. You also gave a description about forming "rings of protection" around your daughter (with undertones of grief that the rings didn't work).

I am the first to admit that I don't know all the dynamics or all the factors. I know that I have done some wrestling with disappointing my parents and making choices that my parents think unwise. I ma in my 40's, so I have had a few extra decades to sort some things out in our relationship.

And yet - I often think about those parents of the blind man. I wonder about how hard it was to let him go be a beggar or wonder in awe as he navigated in an environment without eyesight. I wonder if his mother worried that had she gotten 1 more serving of carrots or something equally minor, would he still have been born blind? I wonder if it was the first time or one of many that they got dragged away from whatever they were doing, his farm/shop/task, maybe her bread/market stall, farming to "stand trial" in an impromptu way because they had a son and their son grew up to be a blind man. I wonder how they felt, expecting to hear that "they failed as parents" because have a blind son or that their son - "he failed as an individual" and now will be punished/scapegoated again for his lack of ability. Instead, they hear (maybe for the first time) there is a bigger purpose here - that this circumstance was set up to make manifest the Glory of God.

If there is a purpose here to my rambling, it's that you go about as the father of the blind man - doing your thing and caring for your family instead of being one of the judges on the side of the road. Maybe things are what they are in part to "make manifest the glory of God" - and maybe your load will be lighter if that is something that you look for and make as part of the family narrative.

[Carburettor]

If there is a purpose here to my rambling, it's that you go about as the father of the blind man - doing your thing and caring for your family instead of being one of the judges on the side of the road. Maybe things are what they are in part to "make manifest the glory of God" - and maybe your load will be lighter if that is something that you look for and make as part of the family narrative.

I suspect no one has any answers that will ring true for all people in all situations. It seems that the constant shifting of social values (which remains beyond the control of any parent) turns child-rearing into a lottery.

I sacrificed myself at core-identity level to become a covenant-keeping husband and father. I believed my choices would count for something. Ultimately, they didn't — or at least not for my children. I love them regardless, but loving and respecting them has meant letting go of the reins after nurturing them according to our set of values throughout their formative years.

[AmyJ]

If there is a purpose here to my rambling, it's that you go about as the father of the blind man - doing your thing and caring for your family instead of being one of the judges on the side of the road. Maybe things are what they are in part to "make manifest the glory of God" - and maybe your load will be lighter if that is something that you look for and make as part of the family narrative.

I suspect no one has any answers that will ring true for all people in all situations. It seems that the constant shifting of social values (which remains beyond the control of any parent) turns child-rearing into a lottery.

I sacrificed myself at core-identity level to become a covenant-keeping husband and father. I believed my choices would count for something. Ultimately, they didn't — or at least not for my children. I love them regardless, but loving and respecting them has meant letting go of the reins after nurturing them according to our set of values throughout their formative years.

It would be really nice if parenting was a transaction-based formula where you did the work at a front end and got the end result of a clear sample of those values.

The "end goal" of parenting was to be able to "let go of the reins" - because they had enough information to make decisions. A sub goal is "what is the legacy I gave to my children" - and it sounds like you were expecting to see your values in a specific way being illustrated in their lives and the choices they make. I can't help you determine any of that.

I got my values-based expectations handed to me on a silver platter when I was busting my butt to get my daughter to church and she decided at the age of 9 that she didn't believe in God and that church was worthless. She and I worked for a few more years on what a "valuable church experience" would look like - and it included her going to Relief Society sometimes and me going to her Primary class. Eventually, that wasn't enough either - and so we have random conversations about the nature of God sometimes. And I am trying to pass on "values" to her about "sexuality", "community-building", "work" and "clean living" without the religious framework and hoping that the way she interacts with them will bless her life.

I got my metaphorical butt handed to me less when I started asking what she valued instead of judging her and/or assuming that she valued what I expected her to value. Your mileage may vary. And yes, I got both guns blazing at me a few times for "being a coward" and "not judging her when she wanted me to judge her".

Who I am at a core-identity level is informed by what I value about being a parent and how I see myself as a parent, no doubt about that. And if I had a glass of something suitably celebratory - I would raise it to you for contributing to raising a child who does make decisions that aren't what you expected - that means you raised a person who does make decisions (which is never a comfortable thing, but not necessarily a bad thing).

I had kept my wedding dress around for years hoping that it would bless my younger sisters and maybe my children but it was an item that was getting hauled places and taking up space in people's lives. Eventually, I had to face either storing it forever, or recognizing that as a dress it was worthless to my siblings because of sizing and personal taste, and that it was worthless to my children because it wasn't something they would cherish either. After a few months of analysis, I realized that I could be ok with that not being a part of the legacy I left for my siblings and children. I heard about and donated the dress to a hospital nonprofit to be cut up and used to sew baby clothes instead. To me, that became a better legacy.

[Carburettor]

The "end goal" of parenting was to be able to "let go of the reins" - because they had enough information to make decisions. A sub goal is "what is the legacy I gave to my children" - and it sounds like you were expecting to see your values in a specific way being illustrated in their lives and the choices they make. I can't help you determine any of that.

Sorry, yes, I wrote something stupid. Rather than letting go of the reins — which should eventually happen in every healthy parent-child relationship — I guess I meant letting go of our values; the parts of ourselves to which we attribute the greatest worth. For the most part, they concluded that our faith values were worthless to them. That's got to be disappointing for any parent.

I had kept my wedding dress around for years hoping that it would bless my younger sisters and maybe my children but it was an item that was getting hauled places and taking up space in people's lives. Eventually, I had to face either storing it forever, or recognizing that as a dress it was worthless to my siblings because of sizing and personal taste, and that it was worthless to my children because it wasn't something they would cherish either. After a few months of analysis, I realized that I could be ok with that not being a part of the legacy I left for my siblings and children. I heard about and donated the dress to a hospital nonprofit to be cut up and used to sew baby clothes instead. To me, that became a better legacy.

My wife stored her wedding dress for over twenty years before burning it when she discovered it had turned an alarming shade of daffodil yellow. I hung on to my suit for 26 years before putting it in a charity collection — perfect for a nineties-themed fancy-dress event.

[AmyJ]

...I meant letting go of our values; the parts of ourselves to which we attribute the greatest worth. For the most part, they concluded that our faith values were worthless to them. That's got to be disappointing for any parent.

I agree. I felt that way with my daughter more than once already (and she is a young teenager - we haven't hit the really growth-intensive phases).

I have given this a lot of thought, and determined that not all "faith values" are created equal. Some of my values are ones like "academic honesty" that matter to me as well as my religious community. And not all "faith values" are actually values - they can be re-classified as "faith traditions" or "faith ways of doing things" such as temple attendance, etc.

It can be heart-warming when you see your children doing something you did, or following some of same traditions. But when children don't do what we expect/hope/most value for them - it's easy for us to look around for someone to blame - which may or may not be accurate.

My wife stored her wedding dress for over twenty years before burning it when she discovered it had turned an alarming shade of daffodil yellow. I hung on to my suit for 26 years before putting it in a charity collection — perfect for a nineties-themed fancy-dress event.

We all take something and leave something that was a part of us wherever we go - both physically and metaphysically. The older I get, the more I realize that I want to leave behind "connection" and "hope" and "sanctuary" instead of dwelling on my random expectations. Some days, that is a lot easier to say and do.

[Carburettor]

I have given this a lot of thought, and determined that not all "faith values" are created equal. Some of my values are ones like "academic honesty" that matter to me as well as my religious community. And not all "faith values" are actually values - they can be re-classified as "faith traditions" or "faith ways of doing things" such as temple attendance, etc.

Thank you, yes, "faith traditions" is a far better description in many cases.

[Roy]

*spoiler-ish warning* A couple points of struggle for some characters closest to Jesus in the show is 'why is Jesus performing miracles for others but not me?' The answer that they end up getting from Jesus boils down to 'Do you have enough faith in me to trust that me not removing your difficulty/tragedy is what's best for you?"

Yeah. The song "Blessings" by Laura Story presents a similar concept. Sometimes you need these sorts of narratives in order to make meaning and purpose out of suffering and disappointment.

I recently ran across an LDS daily blog post with the same general theme with a specific LDS twist. The idea is that God is putting us through our own personal obstacle course because He knows exactly what trials we will need to experience/endure/overcome to prepare us for exaltation. Jesus is held up as an example of someone that did no wrong yet received hardship at every turn.

https://www.ldsdaily.com/personal-lds-b ... god-works/

I am not a big fan of the idea that God has personalized plans for each of us (although I can understand the appeal and I think that this position could be fairly easily maintained/defended using moderate LDS sources). I prefer the idea that God has the same plan for each of us and that it only has a few requirements and the rest of our lives gets filled in with random chance and personal choices. In other words, I prefer the hands-off God to the micro-manager God.

However, We do have a teaching that God blesses the righteous and it can be demonstrated that sometimes the righteous suffer exceedingly. If your intent is to explain the contradiction then the idea that God knows best what will help each individual to grow the most works fairly well.