My theory of time, perfection and God

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SilentDawning
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My theory of time, perfection and God

Post by SilentDawning »

Years ago I simulated the running of a factory. This was a monte carlo simulation using probability distributions as well as certain decisions under my control. The goal was to minimize inventory carrying costs while also minimizing unsold inventory -- a tension that needed to be optimized) to produce the greatest profit. I was able to simulate the interaction of various variables over a couple decades of running the factory. In the end, I was able to determine, through trial and error, which set of decisions (mostly inventory order quantities, interacting with probabilistic sales figures), would produce the best result over the long term.

Around that time, I saw a video on the evolution of man. The scientists indicated there were many species of ape/human hybrids. These might last for generations but most (many) became extinct.

I started reflecting on my Monte Carlo Simulations. I reflected on the statement that to God, a day is a thousand years. It got me wondering, is our world simply a big experiment in which God is LEARNING (through eternal progression), how to create a world that has just the right balance of variables to produce his goal-- ever-expanding worlds and his ability to bring to pass the eternal life of man? Were the early dead-ends of apelike/human species simply God learning to create humans as we are now? Is this a big simulation in which he is capable of observing generations upon generations interacting with each other in a second, because he can control TIME in the simulation, just as I could simulate decades of a factory operating in Excel, observing results as I went, and making adjustments? (Assume the Garden of Eden is an analogy for this life, please, and not the actual creation of man -- I don't want this to digress into Evolution versus Garden of Eden. If a day is a thousand years to God, then conceivably the world of Adam and Even was created over a long period of time so we can understand it better - each day is a creative PERIOD).

Is this world, with all its imperfections, a large laboratory in which God is experimenting with different variables during different eras to see which blend of variables produce the optimal results He is seeking? For example, the optimal mix of valiant and less valiant spirits? The optimal mix of good leaders and people predisposed to bad or evil leadership? Is he trying to create a world which allows us to progress through the opposition of good and evil, while maximizing his goal to make his Kingdom "flow unto him without compulsory means". I take compulsory means to mean "without God's intervention".

Is this why our sufferings are technically "but a moment"? That to God, a lifetime is simulated with the click of a button (for lack of a better analogy). And do we receive some kind of reward in the future since He has not yet figured out how to create heaven ON earth without resorting to Satan's plan, which was compulsory means? Is God simulating variables so he can learn how to "build a better watch" as watchmaker?

I know, from experience, that if I set up a project with the right variables in place -- top leadership support, sufficient resources, training, clear objectives -- and people with the right personalities and skills, I can, as a designer, facilitate phenomenal results without intervening -- other than to give the team the direction I want them to go (like the scriptures do). But it took years of failing until I hit on the right variables. Is this perhaps what God is doing?

After death, He maintains his character as a JUST God by creating giving rewards and punishment for people who were part of His big experiment with a place in his Kingdom, or not -- all places created by him - (through his intervention, and therfore compulsion, because there comes a time when we can't choose which Kingdom we end up with = judgment day). He rights the wrongs, spun through his simulation of the interaction of variables, by giving the people who suffered significant compensation or punishment, to level the playing field, thus, leading to everyone agreeing that his final judgments are just?

Anyway, that is a recurring thought to me. I wondered what others thought.

********
NOte, this to me, explains why God lets evil run its course, even at the expense of the deaths of many good people, as in the holocaust. He is watching to learn from the interaction of the veraibles, when God will intervene, etcetera, so HE can make adjustments in yet another simulation, fostered by who he lets receive bodies in this world, to the extent he allows the enlightenment of technology and science, etcetera.

Some will cry foul -- saying "God is Perfect and all-knowing". But isn't progression "ETERNAL"? Therefore, isn't safe to say that God is in fact Perfect from our perspective but still growing in his own knowledge and wisdom? And compared to us, isn't he all-knowing? Can being perfect and all-knowing be compatible with learning and therefore, ETERNAL progression even in God's case?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
Minyan Man
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Re: My theory of time, perfection and God

Post by Minyan Man »

Wow. You just blew my mind. That is really a lot to consider. You've been thinking about this for awhile.
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SilentDawning
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Re: My theory of time, perfection and God

Post by SilentDawning »

Judging by the lack of responses to views, I think it's too heavy for people. Or the post is too long.


Short version -- God is capable of speeding up time while it passes slowly to us. Perhaps he was learning to create man when he created all those apelike creatures whose species did not dominate the earth and went extinct. Perhaps he did so by speeding up time to acclerate his experiment(s). There were genetic or other defects from which He learned, creating new species capable of surviving for the long term, or developing into beings like us, in lightening speed from His perspective.

Perhaps we are the result of multiple trials in which he speeded up time to learn as quickly as he could from his perspective. Perhaps he experiments with variables like a watch maker and is trying to figure which variables optimize the opposition necessary for growth while also maximizing the number of souls saved. Perhaps this explains why a thousand years is a day to God. What reason does He have to accelerate time in his world, if not to get more done in less time?

That was the crux of my question/theory.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
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DarkJedi
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Re: My theory of time, perfection and God

Post by DarkJedi »

I subscribe to the idea that to God time is not linear. I think humans try to to look at it through our own very dim/dark lens and quite simply can't comprehend it.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Old-Timer
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Re: My theory of time, perfection and God

Post by Old-Timer »

I just read the post. It is similar to what I have thought for a long time.

I don't believe in "multiple mortal probations" or reincarnation - but I also don't disbelieve in them. I do believe, however, in eternal progression and the idea that mortally as we know it in the moment isn't the ultimate deciding factor in that progression.

We speak of "time and all eternity", as well as "the eternities". I beleive the love of God is FAR more patient and long-suffering than we tend to realize.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Watcher
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Re: My theory of time, perfection and God

Post by Watcher »

SilentDawning wrote: 12 Oct 2019, 14:58 Years ago I simulated the running of a factory. This was a monte carlo simulation using probability distributions as well as certain decisions under my control. The goal was to minimize inventory carrying costs while also minimizing unsold inventory -- a tension that needed to be optimized) to produce the greatest profit. I was able to simulate the interaction of various variables over a couple decades of running the factory. In the end, I was able to determine, through trial and error, which set of decisions (mostly inventory order quantities, interacting with probabilistic sales figures), would produce the best result over the long term.

Around that time, I saw a video on the evolution of man. The scientists indicated there were many species of ape/human hybrids. These might last for generations but most (many) became extinct.

I started reflecting on my Monte Carlo Simulations. I reflected on the statement that to God, a day is a thousand years. It got me wondering, is our world simply a big experiment in which God is LEARNING (through eternal progression), how to create a world that has just the right balance of variables to produce his goal-- ever-expanding worlds and his ability to bring to pass the eternal life of man? Were the early dead-ends of apelike/human species simply God learning to create humans as we are now? Is this a big simulation in which he is capable of observing generations upon generations interacting with each other in a second, because he can control TIME in the simulation, just as I could simulate decades of a factory operating in Excel, observing results as I went, and making adjustments? (Assume the Garden of Eden is an analogy for this life, please, and not the actual creation of man -- I don't want this to digress into Evolution versus Garden of Eden. If a day is a thousand years to God, then conceivably the world of Adam and Even was created over a long period of time so we can understand it better - each day is a creative PERIOD).

Is this world, with all its imperfections, a large laboratory in which God is experimenting with different variables during different eras to see which blend of variables produce the optimal results He is seeking? For example, the optimal mix of valiant and less valiant spirits? The optimal mix of good leaders and people predisposed to bad or evil leadership? Is he trying to create a world which allows us to progress through the opposition of good and evil, while maximizing his goal to make his Kingdom "flow unto him without compulsory means". I take compulsory means to mean "without God's intervention".

Is this why our sufferings are technically "but a moment"? That to God, a lifetime is simulated with the click of a button (for lack of a better analogy). And do we receive some kind of reward in the future since He has not yet figured out how to create heaven ON earth without resorting to Satan's plan, which was compulsory means? Is God simulating variables so he can learn how to "build a better watch" as watchmaker?

I know, from experience, that if I set up a project with the right variables in place -- top leadership support, sufficient resources, training, clear objectives -- and people with the right personalities and skills, I can, as a designer, facilitate phenomenal results without intervening -- other than to give the team the direction I want them to go (like the scriptures do). But it took years of failing until I hit on the right variables. Is this perhaps what God is doing?

After death, He maintains his character as a JUST God by creating giving rewards and punishment for people who were part of His big experiment with a place in his Kingdom, or not -- all places created by him - (through his intervention, and therfore compulsion, because there comes a time when we can't choose which Kingdom we end up with = judgment day). He rights the wrongs, spun through his simulation of the interaction of variables, by giving the people who suffered significant compensation or punishment, to level the playing field, thus, leading to everyone agreeing that his final judgments are just?

Anyway, that is a recurring thought to me. I wondered what others thought.

********
NOte, this to me, explains why God lets evil run its course, even at the expense of the deaths of many good people, as in the holocaust. He is watching to learn from the interaction of the veraibles, when God will intervene, etcetera, so HE can make adjustments in yet another simulation, fostered by who he lets receive bodies in this world, to the extent he allows the enlightenment of technology and science, etcetera.

Some will cry foul -- saying "God is Perfect and all-knowing". But isn't progression "ETERNAL"? Therefore, isn't safe to say that God is in fact Perfect from our perspective but still growing in his own knowledge and wisdom? And compared to us, isn't he all-knowing? Can being perfect and all-knowing be compatible with learning and therefore, ETERNAL progression even in God's case?

I was looking for something else in the archive when I found this thread. This particular subject has played on my mind a great deal because what you are speaking about is directly associated with my profession (thought I am now retired). I would add some ideas to what you have introduced. I specialize in factory and distribution center automation. During my career I designed and created both simulation and emulation models. The basic difference is the detail involved in the model. For example, most emulation models included command/response communication traffic for all the robots and transport systems either with two separate computers or a loopback communication within a single computer.

Without going into all the details, when installing new or upgraded systems, we would go through a two-stage integrated testing with simulations and then emulations. First stage is with simulations which was an initial proof or validation of concept model. This proof or validation of concept itemized various throughput parameters that allowed modification of parameters to determine optimal results. The second testing type included emulators of various pieces of the system. For example, part of an emulator would echo back response communication traffic from various robots to the control system. Often there was a host emulation system above that which emulated human interfaces and reports.

This initial integrated testing could all be done and was usually done off site or separate from physical operations. In the “Pearl of Great Price”, LDS theology presents the concept of “all things” being created “spiritually” before they were physically created; the suggestion is that this spiritual creation (simulations and emulations) took place long before anything was attempted physically.

There are many reasons for pretesting simulations and emulations. Not only is it important to find flaws to fix before installation but to also gain confidence in those portions that worked properly when errors (bugs) occur. This helps isolate weak areas in the complex system. Such can also be used – as you suggested – to determine optime operations within the complex system. There is one other important aspect in all this. Knowing what initial characteristics there are for problems – the system can be monitored in the future so such conditions can be rectified during live operations so there is not a system failure shutting down operations – allowing corrections to be made to restore integrity and return to desired operations.

With the information and knowledge from pre-testing the physical system can be installed. Not only with confidence but with understanding of what to do and how to identify when the operations are not optimal. However, as various levels of the physical environment are installed that portion is tested to insure proper performance. I believe there are indications that this testing happened during the creation of our earth. Following the implantation or various cycles (days) of physical creation the creation scriptures tell us that G-d looked upon what was done and indicated it was “good”. This indicates to me that testing was taking place and what was physically in place was determined to be working according to predetermined requirements.
What I have left out is that the first step in designing a complex system is to define or create a requirements document. At this point my post is sufficiently long. And it does appear to me that G-d and his creation team are experts in their craft – from the “beginning” down to the full implementation of a carefully engineered installment of a very advanced and sophisticated complex system of intelligent life that as fare as we know and can verify is extremely rare in this universe – perhaps the only of its kind.
Roy
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Re: My theory of time, perfection and God

Post by Roy »

Sounds fascinating. I do believe that over the long course of human history progress has been made towards humanity, compassion, and empathy. I also believe that G-d takes a "long" view of history.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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SilentDawning
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Re: My theory of time, perfection and God

Post by SilentDawning »

I'm glad someone grasped my long version of my "theory". The difference is that I postulated all iterations happened in the real world as God sped up time in his own realm, changing certain variables until eventually he created "man" succesfully. I postulated that all the births and eventual extinctions of apes and precursors to mankind were attempts at getting the variables right so mankind as we know it could successfully thrive.

You seem to imply that He simulated everything spiritually and when he had a working model, implemented it in steps, which is a different approach than what I said -- if I understood you correctly.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
Roy
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Re: My theory of time, perfection and God

Post by Roy »

SilentDawning wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 20:18 You seem to imply that He simulated everything spiritually and when he had a working model, implemented it in steps, which is a different approach than what I said -- if I understood you correctly.
I understand that there is a uniquely LDS teaching that G-d created everything spiritually before he created it physically. This includes the rocks and dirt of the ground. I have no idea what it might mean to create something spiritually. However, I can assume that it might have some similarities to running a simulation.

It might be a possible path to connect your theory back to LDS theology.

Hypothetically, maybe simulations could be ran in both the spiritual phase and the mortal phase - with the time sped up for expedited results.

No use watching single celled organisms evolve for millions of years, let's skip to the good stuff.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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Re: My theory of time, perfection and God

Post by Watcher »

SilentDawning wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 20:18 I'm glad someone grasped my long version of my "theory". The difference is that I postulated all iterations happened in the real world as God sped up time in his own realm, changing certain variables until eventually he created "man" succesfully. I postulated that all the births and eventual extinctions of apes and precursors to mankind were attempts at getting the variables right so mankind as we know it could successfully thrive.

You seem to imply that He simulated everything spiritually and when he had a working model, implemented it in steps, which is a different approach than what I said -- if I understood you correctly.
I think you understand al lot and not just about me.

It is not my intent to put forth the idea that I have answers concerning creation or for that matter much of anything else. Just that I have experience in creating simulation and emulation models from the ground up and the logic of simulation and emulation models makes a lot of sense to me – not just in real life applications but from various hints in scripture that was written before mankind’s historical applications of scientific modeling to accurately predict outcomes. The most common models of complex systems in use to date are based on “Chaos Theory”. The basis of chaos theory is that all complex systems operate within a tolerance range or balance of specified parameters. If one or more of the parameters goes outside of the tolerance range or balance, then an entirely new tolerance range or balance will eventually be achieved and any attempts to return to a previous tolerance range or balance become virtually impossible. That a changed complex system restoration is virtually impossible is the reason it is called Chaos Theory.

Each parameter has unique possible operations. Operations are defined by various requirements and possible operational outcomes. In essence requirements are resources that are itemized from required to optional and operational outcomes are listed from high (success) to low (failure) and vary on the “life” of an individual element within the specific parameter.

SilentDawning put forth the idea of operational (empirical) testing with time (cron) as a variable parameter. I am suggesting computers add a dimension to testing and learning possibilities that can eliminate various concepts of empirical reincarnation experimentation to produce a most desired response. However, there is a very interesting capability within the same Chaos Theory modeling that allows for time to be run backwards – both as a validation of the emulation as well as an exploration for finding initial possibilities. Examples of this includes things like looking at our current solar system (or our known universe) and running the model backwards to discover “possible” initial creation parameters.

I personally am excited about this idea of modeling as an opportunity of personal study – not just of our universe and other things of science but as an application of religious study. A possible (personal) study could be the payment of Tithes and Offerings. But for such a study to be complete would require regular measurables. And I would classify a yearly tithing deceleration as a required regular measurable.

I have a son that in many ways is smarter than me that I suggested (in a family home evening very long ago) that tithing should be studied on a minimal basis of yearly tithing declaration in a journal. The reason I suggest a written journal is that humans tend to evolve that we think we think, and a journal is a more accurate account. He began to keep a tithing journal and as a result even though he has become inactive in the church concerning just about everything else – he pays a 10% tithing to the Church based on several decades of his close attention to records. I have kidded him that money has become way too important to him.

One thing that simulation and emulation models do is keep records – if such models are deficient in records – the model will always be insufficient perhaps even worthless. I suggest that life (as complex as it is) becomes much more understandable based on keeping records of the effects of important parameters. I find it fascinating that most religions reflect on the possibility of detailed records being kept in heaven. Some think such records are for condemnation judgements by G-d – I am more of the mind that records provide a clear understanding of what, why and how things affect us as they do.
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