Questioning the scriptures as an "Answer Book"

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Old-Timer
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Re: Questioning the scriptures as an "Answer Book"

Post by Old-Timer »

Sincere question, watcher:

How do you view scriptures?
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Watcher
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Re: Questioning the scriptures as an "Answer Book"

Post by Watcher »

Old-Timer wrote: 24 Oct 2022, 13:03 Sincere question, watcher:

How do you view scriptures?
I have thought about how to answer your question. To do so I think I need to deal with a number of factors that divine scripture rely upon. It is my understanding that there are two opposing principalities at work among mortals which can be summed up as light and liberating intelligence and the other is darkness and overbearance. I believe that G-d’s work and glory is the bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Which I think of in terms of ultimate liberty and freedom. In opposition, I believe that Satan’s work and glory is to bring to pass the immorality and infernal life of man. Which I think of in terms of ultimate dominance and bondage.

I see scripture in its initial offering from G-d as pure light and intelligence (as are all things of G-d) – which for man in their mortal and fallen state is incomprehensible. Therefore, in order to relate to the light and truth in scripture we, of necessity, require inspiration and guidance from a spirit of light and truth (which is the Holy Ghost). Because of our mortal and fallen state we are subjected to influences form a spirit of darkness and overbearance which of necessity (or as a default) will overcome us. To defeat darkness we must become disciplined – which I believe is the first or initial step of sacrifice.

With this background I think I can now talk about scripture. All scripture comes to us through mortal individuals. In order for such an individual to provide scripture they, of necessity, must be influenced by a spirit of light and truth (which cannot happen unless they have become somewhat disciplined). But in order for us to comprehend scripture we must be influenced by the same spirit of light and truth (which cannot happen unless we have become somewhat disciplined).

It is interesting to me that we have no “first” or “initial” copies of any scripture. All are secondary copies of copies – sometimes numerous copies of copies. I believe that the more downstream our copies of scripture the more disciplined and studied in the spirit of light and truth we must become to glean or prove to ourselves that which remains light and truth in scripture. This being because of corrupting influences to our mortal fallen state.

I do not believe any mortal can provide us with light and truth – only that spirit of light and truth. But I believe that the more we associate with other disciplined by the spirit of light and truth the “easier” it is to comprehend that which is the light of truth and the easier it is to increase our discipline. In my youth I learned to play the guitar but I found that by joining with a group and playing to gather I was able to better increase my discipline of playing the guitar. I also discovered that playing with someone undisciplined that it tended to, over time, in essence, soil my abilities.

To summarize I believe that to connect to the light and truth in scripture – we must become disciplined and influenced by a spirit of light and truth. I also believe that associating with others disciplined and influenced by a spirit of light and truth will greatly add to our ability to comprehend the light and truth of scripture. It is also interesting to me that Jesus called his followers disciples which has the same root meaning as discipline and he ask us to meet together often. I know this post is rather long but it hardly even scratches the surface. I am interested in your opinion and others as well.
Old-Timer
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Re: Questioning the scriptures as an "Answer Book"

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How is that different than any other recorded word that is not deemed to be scripture?

I understand what you wrote, but nothing in the last comment is unique to what religious people call scripture.

So, with that in mind:

1) Do you see all inspired writings or utterances as scripture, regardless of their origin or religious acceptance?

2) Do you accept all religious foundation texts as scripture - or just the Mormon standard works (and prophetic messages)?

3) How expansive is your definition?

4) Do you believe reasonable people can disagree, even significantly, about what constitutes scripture and the meanings of scripture - or is there one, true canon and interpretation for each tome, passage, story, verse, etc?
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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SilentDawning
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Re: Questioning the scriptures as an "Answer Book"

Post by SilentDawning »

I am interested in reading Watcher's answers to Old Timer's questions. I just want to add that it would be interesting to commission a gifted writer to attempt to write a book that fits the literary style of the Book of Mormon. With talent behind the effort, I think it would be interesting to see that probably, such fiction can impart spirit and wisdom just as well as the Book of Mormon does.

Back to Old Timer's questions...
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
Roy
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Re: Questioning the scriptures as an "Answer Book"

Post by Roy »

SilentDawning wrote: 09 Nov 2022, 19:31 I am interested in reading Watcher's answers to Old Timer's questions. I just want to add that it would be interesting to commission a gifted writer to attempt to write a book that fits the literary style of the Book of Mormon. With talent behind the effort, I think it would be interesting to see that probably, such fiction can impart spirit and wisdom just as well as the Book of Mormon does.

Back to Old Timer's questions...
Just to play with this idea a little more. I have been fascinated by the examples of AI generated poetry. When Artificial Intelligence can produce original poetry that is indistinguishable from that produced by humans it leads one to examine what defines poetry and what defines humanity.

Suppose that an AI program produced scripture.

Would the scripture contain light and truth that might be perceptible to those individuals that have inspiration from the HG?

Assuming that the AI program is incapable of receiving revelation directly from G-d then where would the light and truth found in its writing have come from?

One possibility is that AI program takes light and truth from the data set (of documents) that is provided by the programmers - then when the AI writes scripture it is merely reflecting the light and truth from the source documents.

Still, I find it fascinating to ponder the possibilities.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Watcher
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Re: Questioning the scriptures as an "Answer Book"

Post by Watcher »

Old-Timer wrote: 09 Nov 2022, 13:04 How is that different than any other recorded word that is not deemed to be scripture?

I understand what you wrote, but nothing in the last comment is unique to what religious people call scripture.

So, with that in mind:

1) Do you see all inspired writings or utterances as scripture, regardless of their origin or religious acceptance?

2) Do you accept all religious foundation texts as scripture - or just the Mormon standard works (and prophetic messages)?

3) How expansive is your definition?

4) Do you believe reasonable people can disagree, even significantly, about what constitutes scripture and the meanings of scripture - or is there one, true canon and interpretation for each tome, passage, story, verse, etc?

I will attempt to answer your questions as I currently understand inspired texts and scripture. I believe in evolution of thought because my journals and notes pertaining to scripture (and inspired texts) has evolved a great deal during my lifetime.

1) I do not classify all inspired texts as scripture. I do not even consider all of our standard LDS “scripture” as scripture. In essence I believe that there are two classifications of “scripture” as well as several levels of "scripture”. For me the first classification of scripture are revelations given concerning the laws, ordinances and covenants of the plan of salvation. These revelations I consider essential, critical and of the greatest importance. I believe this is what is meant by the “Fulness of the Gospel”. The second classification of scripture I believe are revelations given to inspire, direct, help, comfort and give understanding to those that seek divine assistance with their mortal journey that may or may not have any direct bearing on the laws, ordinances and covenants of the plan of salvation. As a side note – I do not fine scripture that beneficial in resolving doctrine and truths outside of the fulness of the gospel.
As to the levels of scripture, I believe that there are basically but not exclusively: a) to all mankind. b) to the children of the covenant (church members in general). c) to various regions which includes areas (under area authority), stakes (under stake authority), wards (under ward authority) and individuals and families (under priesthood ministering authority). I believe that I have personal scripture to which I alone am and will be held, accountable. I see no purpose in exposing others to my personal scriptures that are not invested in my personal mortal journey.

2) I am not sure how to answer your second question. I believe that every religion provides spiritual (moral) truths to which those that hear such truth will be accountable. To them such may be believed to be scripture. I have no problem with what anyone believes as long as they are true and loyal to what ever it is they believe. I also believe that no one will be accountable for truths that they are not exposed to or taught. I believe that there are nuggets of truth to be found everywhere and in all things. If I were prospecting for gold – I would search where I could or at least believed I could find the largest and most deposits of gold. Where I felt the most comfortable, the most liked or the most respected would not be a priority. Also, if I happened upon any deposits of gold by accident, even in a place I never expected to find any – I would not abandon or ignore it.
As for our LDS standards works (scripture) – I believe that they are not yet completed and that there are many things (nuggets of truth) that of necessity are needed to be revealed to complete even our “fullness of the gospel”.

3) How expansive is my definition? I believe it applies to all truths – in religion, politics or public affairs, science, mathematics, music and any other means to discover truth. I believe all truth is encompassed by G-d and revealed to us by G-d as we are able to accept it. I also believe that there are efforts to corrupt truth – so much is the power of corruption that I believe without divine help it is impossible in mortality to discern the light of truth from that which has been corrupted. I believe this from my own experiences.

4) I believe that in the quest for truth – be it science or religion (or whatever) that reasonable people will have and should have different points of view. I even believe that such points of view can be exclusionary – meaning that they are contradictory. When points of view are contradictory, I believe that one or both must have flawed elements. For me, if someone has an opinion (point of view) different than my own and it is an opinion I have not previously considered – I believe that I owe it to myself as well as them to explorer that new view as carefully as I would consider any of my own. If I have considered such a point of view previously and found it or believed that I have found it flawed – I believe I should express my understandings as best as I am able. If, however, they are offended or angered by my attempts to deal with my concerns – I will withdraw and leave then to their opinion somewhat myself concerned that there may be things I have not properly consider.

I do not believe that reasonable individuals searching for truth will be angered or offended by someone having a differing opinion. But I also believe that the more reasonable people communicate and share their points of view – meaning listening carefully to each other that they will tend toward convergence of ideas and away from divergences of concepts. I also believe that if one or both has created lines in the sand that they will not cross – that reason will have it limits and that a conscientious is doubtful at best and most likely impossible. I also consider any concept of idea that I find interesting and likely reasonable – to be unreasonable until I find conscientious with others that are willing to critically consider my concept from the standpoint of it having some flaw somewhere.
Old-Timer
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Re: Questioning the scriptures as an "Answer Book"

Post by Old-Timer »

Thanks, watcher. I appreciate your response. It helps me understand you much better.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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