A View of Faith I Have Come to Love

For the discussion of spirituality -- from LDS and non-LDS sources
Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: A View of Faith I Have Come to Love

Post by Roy »

No problem. I admit that I do not know much about electrons. However, that doesn't stop me from using them on a regular basis. As far as experimentation and the scientific method goes, they bring consistent repeatable results.

I do believe that some people have had experiences with G-d or received blessing that might not have easy explanations. I try to honor that by suspending my disbelief and allowing those individuals to have their truth that is true for them.

I also recognize that I cannot scale those experiences to others and promise that they could have the same if only they do XYZ. I must honor those individuals by believing them that they have done everything right and still have not received the promised results.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Old-Timer
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Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: A View of Faith I Have Come to Love

Post by Old-Timer »

I think the central difference between faith and the issue of lights coming on when we flip the light switch is important. I know it is a common example, but I see it as confusing faith with knowledge in an important way:

There is no "gray area" with light switches. They work or don't work completely independent of any person's beliefs. They either work or they don't. Period. They either turn on lights (most of the time) or they don't (some of the time). In each case, we know why either result happens. There is no "evidence of things not seen", in the Biblical sense, because the results have been seen - without any dependence on the person flipping the switch. In other words, when anyone with any decent degree of experience with light switches flips the switch, they know exactly what will happen - one way or the other. It isn't an issue of faith; it is universally observed knowledge.

Of course, we might think a switch will work when it doesn't. We don't have perfect knowledge of each and every instance. However, we know why it works or doesn't in the instant the light comes on or doesn't - even if it is a general knowledge (something in the circuit failed) and not an exact knowledge (the failure occurred exactly here).

I am speaking of faith in the realm(s) where we literally can choose among possibilities when we have no way of knowing which possibility is correct. Why did my mother die? Was it simply a physical malfunction? Did God make it happen so she wouldn't suffer for a long time? Is there a time allotted for each person's life, when they will die one way or another? Is there a God who has anything to do with death, much less when it happens? (etc.) There is no clear-cut, universally-accepted, One True Answer - so I can be an "agent unto myself" and choose based on which answer makes the most sense to me - or has the most meaning - or brings me the most comfort - or something else.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Watcher
Posts: 114
Joined: 12 Jul 2022, 08:39

Re: A View of Faith I Have Come to Love

Post by Watcher »

Recently I observed a rather strange challenge to a general faith in electrons. I own some rental property for college students that was once an upper-class home. The problem is that it was an old home – over 100 years old. The original wiring for the home is called knob and tube. In essence the live and ground wires are wired separately in the building to various glass knobs and tubes in the wall. I have replaced 90% of the wiring because of necessity and safety. But because the power and ground are run separately it is possible to overload a ground (which will cause a fire) or have power in a ground or line to a ground inadvertently (which is confusing).

A few days ago, my tenant complained that a light in the kitchen remained on and would not turn off. This is opposite of what usually happens. I thought to fix the problem but discovered that there was no power to the light switch. My tenant was somewhat concerned that the place was haunted. They were present when I discovered that there was no power to the switch and they became quite distraught and concerned that something evil was taking over the place. I tried to calm them by suggesting that there was a reasonable explanation. I tried to explain about knob and tube wiring but quickly discovered that it was too much information for them grasp from short explanations and neither of us had the time for a long-detailed decision. So, I went with the “I am a smart engineer and I know how to fix this – just trust me” response. Though my statement was not 100% accurate – it calmed my tenant in the short term.

I have an excellent electrician that I use because he is experienced with my old place, works fast, does good work and charges reasonably. He is also licensed and bonded which protects me from lawsuits. I learned that there are things knob and tube wiring will do that I had not experienced before. A little more of my knob and tube wiring has been replaced.

I believe that there must be some knowledge before there can be faith. And that faith is an extension of the knowledge into things that we cannot explain with our current understanding and knowledge. If our knowledge is flawed then our faith will be false faith and cause misunderstanding. There is also a possibility that we can make false assumptions to extend our knowledge which is also false faith leading to misunderstandings. And yet we cannot learn without exercising faith and pushing beyond our current knowledge and understanding.

I believe faith must be tested before we can obtain knowledge. As a scientist and engineer I have learned that inadequate testing creates false hope and thinking there is knowledge when there are shades of ignorance still remaining. I find Moroni chapter 10 in the Book of Mormon applicable and interesting. This reference testifies that many different spiritual gifts are given so that faith can be tested differently by individual. And that by comparing the results of our different spiritual gifts that our testing of faith is made more complete. We can and should learn and grow with each other helping each other in our testing of faith. But this can only occur when we exercise and test our own faith by and through our spiritual gifts – and likewise those with whom we exchange our witness. I believe the question quickly becomes – how do we know when faith is being exercised and tested by and through spiritual gifts???? Not just in others but most importantly within ourselves??????
Old-Timer
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Re: A View of Faith I Have Come to Love

Post by Old-Timer »

watcher, I respect that, for you and anyone else for whom it works - but that is a unique, altered definition of faith. Classic faith is based on hope in the unseen, not some degree of knowledge in the seen or experienced. Classically, faith is one realm, while knowledge is another realm. Just because faith in some things can become knowledge about those things does not mean faith in anything can become knowledge in that anything. If a new definition works for others, I accept that - as long as they recognize it is a new definition that was required because the original definition didn't work for them.

If I am being direct, you don't believe in the classic, Biblio-Christian (and early Mormon) definition of faith. Rather, you appear to believe in the fairly recent Mormon framing where faith and knowledge intertwine and look synonymous to some people. I do not accept that new definition, personally, specifically because I DO believe in faith as a distinct, important concept, apart from knowledge. I recognize there are things I can't know, objectively, so "pure faith" is important to me.

It is okay that we see this differently - as long as there is no attempt convince each other our own view is "correct". I hope I continue to understand faith better as I enter my 60's, but I am certain any new insight I accept will not be to retun to a version from which I moved on decades ago.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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