David Archuleta LGBTQIA+

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Roy
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Re: David Archuleta LGBTQIA+

Post by Roy »

I think a big part of the trend has to do with new levels of acceptance for non-hetero individuals. Another part comes from there being more categories to consider. I think a good number of youth today search their feelings for evidence of their attractions, whereas previous generations would actively repress anything that wasn't hetero. "Search your feelings" - Star Wars Quote

I recently had a sex/pornography talk with my teenagers individually (patterned after Dr. Jennifer Finlayson Fife's lesson plan). One of my children told me that they think they may be non-hetero. It wasn't like a "coming out" moment . It was just matter of fact and flowed naturally from the conversation. My child has plenty of time to figure it out.

In this David is a good example. He isn't fixed in one category or another. Just because he told his parents one thing in 2014 does not mean that he is forever married to that identifier.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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DarkJedi
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Re: David Archuleta LGBTQIA+

Post by DarkJedi »

There seems to have been an update on David's status as he struggles and figures things out for himself.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/01 ... rchuletas/

I think his struggles are very much like what other LGBTQIA+ people who grew up in the church go through, including suicidal ideation. Some excerpts:
“I can no longer…pretend like everything’s fine,” he says in the video.
“That’s what I wanted,” he says. “I grew up believing it and defending it…[thinking] I’m going to get married and have kids and have a wife and be married in the temple and get to live happily ever after.”
His sexuality, he says, did not allow that.
He hoped he could “overcome the lack of feelings…and make it work,” he says. “But there’s this really strange emotion that comes up each time I would try and do that — this guilt, the shame, [that I wasn’t] good enough.…You start feeling bitter towards the girls, in my case, and I just didn’t even want to see them anymore.”
“I don’t want to play this part for my whole life,” he says in his video. “I’m feeling like I’m going nuts.”
“In my religion, it’s OK to be attracted to men, just still marry a woman because it’s the right thing to do. That’s the eternal perspective,” Archuleta says. “Like that’s what’s going to really make you happy.”
He says he was taught that being with a man would make him unhappy and sad and cause him to “lose the light.”
The dissonance between his attractions and marrying a woman “caused me to despise myself,” Archuleta says. “I decided…I needed to change something if I wanted to look at myself in a better light, which was scary because I thought, there’s no way I can accept that I’m into guys…that I could accept that and be happy and be OK with myself, and be OK with God.”
What would God prefer — him being romantically involved with someone “who is the same as me,” he wondered, or “not being here and not existing?”
Archuleta then started to think staying alive might be all right — “even if I’m gay.”
After endlessly asking deity to take away his attractions, he says he got a clear answer: “You need to stop asking me this because I’m not going to change this.”
The Latter-day Saint musician now feels God loves him as he is.
Though Archuleta’s painful mental wrestling has been replicated thousands, if not millions, of times among Latter-day Saint LGBTQ members, the singing sensation has a public platform and more visibility than most who privately suffer.
“David’s bravery to open up and be so vulnerable is incredibly commendable,” says Madi Hawes, chair of the student outreach committee for Brigham Young University’s USGA (Understanding Sexuality, Gender, and Allyship) group. “To me, the most important thing he said in the entire video was ‘I’m here.’”
“So many people think being gay is all you want is to have physical sexual relations and give into those desires of lusting,” he says. “It’s like, no, it is the same way a heterosexual person would want to fall in love. … Are you thinking only about sex when you want to marry someone and share your life with someone? No, you want to connect with them on an emotional level. You want to share goals with them. …You just want to go and do things together. And, you know, go and eat…make breakfast or lunch, or watch a movie or go on a walk together. …It’s that connection that I had to pretend I could offer to the girls I was with.”
Going forward, Archuleta says, “there’s a greater likelihood for me to marry a guy than a woman at this point.”
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Re: David Archuleta LGBTQIA+

Post by Roy »

That is a heavy weight on his shoulders. May he find all the love and support that he needs.

To quote a friend, "May there be a road."
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Roy
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Re: David Archuleta LGBTQIA+

Post by Roy »

DarkJedi wrote: 24 Jan 2022, 09:43 “So many people think being gay is all you want is to have physical sexual relations and give into those desires of lusting,” he says. “It’s like, no, it is the same way a heterosexual person would want to fall in love. … Are you thinking only about sex when you want to marry someone and share your life with someone? No, you want to connect with them on an emotional level. You want to share goals with them. …You just want to go and do things together. And, you know, go and eat…make breakfast or lunch, or watch a movie or go on a walk together. …It’s that connection that I had to pretend I could offer to the girls I was with.”
Going forward, Archuleta says, “there’s a greater likelihood for me to marry a guy than a woman at this point.”
to recap from another discussion, it appears that the highest life satisfaction scores result when people form relationships with others where there is mutual attraction. The satisfaction scores fall by about 15% when the marriage is a mixed orientation marriage. However, satisfaction scores in mixed orientation marriages are still much higher than for singles. I think this is because of what David explains above. So much more than just sex is the desire to share your life with someone. However, while mixed orientation marriages may work for some, they do fail at more than twice the rate of traditional Mormon marriages and should not be seen as a panacea.

My takeaway is that the worst option from a menu of bad options for those with SSM that wish to remain in the church is for them to stay perpetually single. That burden is just too great.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10081
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Roy
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Re: David Archuleta LGBTQIA+

Post by Roy »

My wife and I watched the 51 minute stream/post together.

My observations:

1) I have deep sympathy for Brother Archuleta. Whatever he does moving forward, I am hopeful that he finds a path that can give him some peace. I have considered myself as an ally for at least the last decade but I do not think that I have really "felt" the predicament of LDS and LGBTQIA+ youth in quite the same way before.

2) David makes a compelling (theoretical) doctrinal argument for suicide. In my mind, the argument is in the same vein and possibly derived from old quotes about virtue being more important than life. "teach both sons and daughters that chastity is worth more than life itself.” J Reuben Clark. "Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives." David O. McKay. "It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." Spencer W. Kimball. As David seems to present the wrestle that he had with his sexuality, his faith, and suicide ideation - if he were to end his life in order to prevent falling into temptation and losing his "virtue" then surely God would forgive him. Perhaps it would even be seen doctrinally as the more moral and noble thing to do...
These quotes are all pretty old but I'm not sure that they have been strongly refuted and our current doctrinal positions and policies do not exactly offer a much better prognosis.

3) I felt that David offered a decent argument for allowing SSM in temples. He states that we currently seal adopted children to their legal (but not biological) parents. Essentially, why could we not do something similar for same sex couples and families. I think for this to be applied, it would take a huge dose of humility about what we do not know about the afterlife and how spirit children may be created etc. I do not think this particular change is likely. However, it would be nice for us as a church to say essentially, "There is much that is not known about the afterlife and how sealings may apply to various situations. In the absence of sure knowledge, we will err on the side of providing ordinances to as many people as possible."

4) I felt that David's argument for allowing SSM families to participate in our church communities outside of temples was a home run. He acknowledges that doctrinally, being in a SSM is not the ideal. However, we already have lots of families that are not the ideal. Whether it is working mothers, or divorce, or single parents, or mixed faith marriages, there are lots of examples where families do not live the ideal and we make allowances for them. We don't (or at least shouldn't) shun them, ostracize them, or excommunicate them. We have compassion upon their circumstances. Why then do we not have a similar feeling of compassion and accommodation for our LGBTQIA+ members?
I wonder if the church could not draw doctrinal inspiration from the apostle Paul, 1 Cor. 7 "8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." Maybe it would be better for the LDS LGBTQIA+ youth (along with the widows) to stay unmarried but if they cannot control themselves, they should marry (SSM) for it is better to marry (SSM) than to burn with passion. To frame it as "Good, Better, Best," maybe eternal heterosexual marriage is "best," and a lifetime of faithful singleness waiting for eternal heterosexual marriage is "better," but can we support SSM as "good" for those that may find it impossible to reach the "better" and "best" options in this life?

5) I feel bad for the extra pressure that David must have felt as a representative or ambassador for the LDS church and the extra scrutiny that he must have felt. I am hopeful that his message might help some LGBTQIA+ youth. However, I personally do not want to make David into some sort of representative or ambassador for LGBTQIA+ issues within the church. That is not fair to David to put that on his shoulders. He can "find himself" without it having to affect an entire movement. Some of that might be unavoidable because of his fame, reach, and openness. However, I would wish to give David the space to live his own life without the bubble and microscope.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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Re: David Archuleta LGBTQIA+

Post by Old-Timer »

As a former history teacher and social scientist by nature, I have wondered what it was that actually drove Alma, Jr. and so many other "youngsters" out of the church of their fathers (from the perspective of it being a historical narrative). "Wickedness" is a simple excuse made by many older people for why their children reject their beliefs - but it always is more complicated when it is a mass exodus.

I have come to see our intolerance towards LGBTQ+ people as perhaps our Alma, Jr.'s generation issue. I admire David's courage and wish him the best on his journey.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Roy
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Re: David Archuleta LGBTQIA+

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As with all of our faith journeys, David Archuleta's journey continues to grow and change and evolve.

https://www.ldsdaily.com/entertainment/ ... -in-limbo/
At the beginning of his journey, Archuleta said, “You can be part of the LGBTQIA+ community and still believe in God and His gospel plan.” Today, he’s not sure if he stands.

“You know, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was my everything,” he told Billboard. “I did everything for it, I sacrificed so much because that was my number one. I was like, ‘This is more important than my career, than any relationship I could have, this is the number one thing.’ And now I’m just kind of, like, thrown for a loop. And most of [my shows] are in Utah, so I guess I just have to be honest with them like I always have. Like, I was honestly, genuinely in love with my beliefs before. And now I just have to be honest with, like, “You know what? This is where I’m at. I’m in a limbo state now.”
This new song is not about a particular individual. David said that the process of writing this song was already underway before he came out and they had to go back and rewrite some parts to reflect his current situation. I imagine that there had been references to gender or a heterosexual love interest that have since been made more ambiguous and open ended.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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DarkJedi
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Re: David Archuleta LGBTQIA+

Post by DarkJedi »

Roy, I think what you quoted really sums up where many of us in faith crisis and transition were and are.

I continue to hope for the best for David. He has a very tough road to traverse with his sexuality and church membership which is complicated even more by his celebrity.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction
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