Compare & Contrast...

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AmyJ
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Re: Compare & Contrast...

Post by AmyJ »

PazamaManX wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 13:17
Watcher wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 09:44 As much as I would like to be or think otherwise - in over 76 years of experience and with all my effort - the bless them that curse you thing -- I have not made much progresss. My father and my mother could do that and a few others I have known (my wife included and a couple of general authorities I have know personally). I am not sure I can figure it out before I die - hopefully begging for mercy will help - it is about all I have left as hope in such things.


I'm not as far along as you are, but I also can say that I haven't had much success with figuring that one out. The best I can do is 'ignore them that curse you'. I have a long way to go to before I get to 'bless them'.
I've gotten as far as "suspend instant contempt at their reasoning in the face of those who curse me - they have their reason(s) and hopefully I can sort it all out" or "Give up my rationalized right to hurt them because they hurt me".

But honestly, I figure that the real point behind the words "bless them" in that context is "control your actions in the moment of pain/fear/rage/anger so that when all those emotions are spent, you kept everyone safe and haven't burned any connections with people beyond repair (should you choose to repair the relationship and connect to them).".
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DarkJedi
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Re: Compare & Contrast...

Post by DarkJedi »

AmyJ wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 13:53
PazamaManX wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 13:17
Watcher wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 09:44 As much as I would like to be or think otherwise - in over 76 years of experience and with all my effort - the bless them that curse you thing -- I have not made much progresss. My father and my mother could do that and a few others I have known (my wife included and a couple of general authorities I have know personally). I am not sure I can figure it out before I die - hopefully begging for mercy will help - it is about all I have left as hope in such things.


I'm not as far along as you are, but I also can say that I haven't had much success with figuring that one out. The best I can do is 'ignore them that curse you'. I have a long way to go to before I get to 'bless them'.
I've gotten as far as "suspend instant contempt at their reasoning in the face of those who curse me - they have their reason(s) and hopefully I can sort it all out" or "Give up my rationalized right to hurt them because they hurt me".

But honestly, I figure that the real point behind the words "bless them" in that context is "control your actions in the moment of pain/fear/rage/anger so that when all those emotions are spent, you kept everyone safe and haven't burned any connections with people beyond repair (should you choose to repair the relationship and connect to them).".
We could look at Matthew 5:44 as a list of options - bless them or do good to them or pray for them. Praying is a fairly easy thing, but I'd probably end up praying that a boulder falls on their head or something. :twisted: There are a couple interesting things about this scripture and I only quoted one verse sort of out of context. The next verse I quote pretty often:
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
The other thing is other translations abbreviate verse 44:

NRSV and ESV:
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
NIV:
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SilentDawning
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Re: Compare & Contrast...

Post by SilentDawning »

Watcher wrote: 20 Sep 2022, 14:41 I am pleased beyond measure that the Church is not politically active in the USA nor does the church support any political party or candidate in the USA.
It's not all glorious wisdom the church it's that way -- if they start going political they could lose their charitable organization status and have to pay taxes.

Also, I wasn't suggesting the church goes political, just that more new and up-to-date ideas would come forth from our inspired leadership to help us deal with the unique challenges of our day. Something perhaps a little more forward-thinking than "gratitude".

It seems they are more interested in preserving the faith of the members. I'm also a grumpy old bear this evening, so pay no heed :x
Last edited by SilentDawning on 26 Sep 2022, 14:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Watcher
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Re: Compare & Contrast...

Post by Watcher »

PazamaManX wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 13:17
Watcher wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 08:24
My point in this is that it makes no sense to me when someone complains that the church is too authoritarian in one breath and then complains in the next breath that members are somewhat hypocritical in what they say and do. This looks like a reality disconnect to me. If the church is authoritarian – how is it possible so many members are behaving and saying stuff that is out of line from what the church teaches???
I do think calling the church 'authoritarian' is a bit extreme. There are certainly better examples of authoritarians out there. But, I have known church leaders who were high on their own power.

There was one stake presidency I had in particular who had a pretty nasty "what we says goes" mentality. They would frequently squash discussions with them that went against how they wanted things done. Granted, that stake president was a former chief of police, so that's how he was used to leading. But, it still angered a lot of people in the stake.

The church also does tend to expect a lot of subservience from its members, which it usually gets.
Watcher wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 09:25
For me there is logic to everything. My wife tells me that there are very few things that are logical – but she is unable to give me any examples of something real that is not logical.
I agree, pretty much everything has logical reasons for it. If something is illogical, it's usually because all of the variables aren't known. But I do think there are some things that can be beyond the ability to explain logically. Particularly emotions and desires.

A personal example: I have a huge phobia of wasps and hornets; both black and yellow, stinging insects. I also have a strange desire to get into beekeeping; also a black and yellow stinging insect. And I don't even really like honey. Without some serious psychoanalysis, my urge to take care of thousands of bees appears very illogical.
Watcher wrote: 22 Sep 2022, 09:44 As much as I would like to be or think otherwise - in over 76 years of experience and with all my effort - the bless them that curse you thing -- I have not made much progresss. My father and my mother could do that and a few others I have known (my wife included and a couple of general authorities I have know personally). I am not sure I can figure it out before I die - hopefully begging for mercy will help - it is about all I have left as hope in such things.


I'm not as far along as you are, but I also can say that I haven't had much success with figuring that one out. The best I can do is 'ignore them that curse you'. I have a long way to go to before I get to 'bless them'.
I have thought about our exchanges as well as what others have posted and hope to clarify a couple of things. Please, if I seem critical it is not intended. In this world the single thing or negative principle I have the most difficulty with is an individual that is a micromanager. I am an individual that does not deal with micromanagement. I have experienced leaders (and members) in the church that are micromanagers. What I would make clear is that micromanagement is not taught in the LDS church as a desired leadership skill. All the micromanagers I have encountered in the church have acquired and honed such skills outside of what the church teaches.

I have learned from sad experience that confronting a micromanager in a group setting is never beneficial and it does not matter if they are present or not. The only method I have found any success, is in directly dealing with the micromanager in private. I also see micromanagement as a spectrum and not something with a fine very distinct boundary. At one side of the spectrum, I see the tendency to isolate someone on their own without any support. At the other end of the spectrum, I see the tendency to demand step by step exactly what is acceptable to be done without any deviation.

I have also learned that the circumstance in which one is operating in, needs to be considered. A great lesson I acquired while in the military was that there are times to push back and times to look past the micromanagement and just put all my effort into completing the task as described. I have also learned that there are two types of micromanagers (also somewhat of a spectrum). One will listen to criticism – take such into account – and then work towards an amicable solution. The other extreme is to become angry and blow up at any criticism. As a side note here – I have learned that responding with anger to anything will seldom, if ever, produce anything of benefit – not just in relationships but even more importantly in any self-achievements. Getting angry or a desire to get even or revenge destroys more of what I value in myself than any possible benefit realized concerning anyone else. I have also learned that misdirected anger is the worst kind of anger – all with the most harm towards those most angry and is a catalyst for more destructive anger.

My experience is that if there is any possibility of learning self-character improvement and finding reconciliation with others – it is in what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches. I think it is in harmony with what Jesus once said – “In the world you will have tribulations but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world”.

The best way I have found to improve any relationship with anyone else is to deal with them directly and honestly express my concerns but most importantly express my desire to improve things and then to think and behave is if I just made a friend. I do realize that there are always exceptions but even the occasional exceptions I have encountered (and I have experienced rare exceptions among the Latter-day Saints) the only way I can forgive both them and myself is to forgive them and mean no harm. I have not perfected this and am still a work in progress. If there is anything that works better – I have not encountered such yet. But I am open to any suggestions.
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