The relationship of G-d to man

For the discussion of spirituality -- from LDS and non-LDS sources
Watcher
Posts: 114
Joined: 12 Jul 2022, 08:39

Re: The relationship of G-d to man

Post by Watcher »

Old-Timer wrote: 11 Sep 2022, 19:52 Also, on a more personal note as one of the founding administrators, there is no way to prove these things logically that will work universally. They can be proven to ourselves, if we need that to happen, but, in this forum, one of our core guiding principles is that we do not seek to prove our point of view to other participants at the expense of or in opposition to their points of view. We do not seek “the one True answer” about anything. We support each other, which I do for you in this case by accepting that your “proof” is a valid expression of your own perspective, but if you are attempting to prove to the participants here that you are right and they are wrong, you are working against our mission.

I would love to have you continue to be part of this community, but we cannot and will not allow participation that opposes our mission. Please understand that and decide if you can support our mission. If so, you are welcome here; if not, we wish you success and support in another forum that fits your own needs better.
I have discovered that life is much easier and more successful if one utilized the correct tool that is needed for a specific job. My purpose is to both provide and discover tools that can be used to navigate problems we discover and attempt to find resolution. There is an advertisement on TV where a person is working on a car and asks for a specific tool and is handed a feather. They proceed to try to fix the car with the feather.

I have also discovered that if one employs logic they will come to logical conclusions. These conclusions can be compared to others that think they have come to a logical conclusion. Logical conclusions most always converge and seldom diverge. My wonderful wife loves to watch a particular channel on TV (Hallmark) where two individuals always follow the same formatted path to love. One particular saying that is often used in these presented dramas is “I must follow my heart”. Personally, whenever I have attempted to follow such advice, it has proven to be illogical, diverse and ineffective. If my personal experiences seem critical it is because for me such things do not work so well. If other are offended at my learning from my failures – the failure is likely mine for expressing or communicating incorrectly. But this seems to be what the logical purpose of this forum is trying to do.

As for the forum – I personally am never (no longer) angered by discussions. Even if words are critical and intended to be slanderous towards me. The reason is that in my experience, getting upset over what someone else has said – has never been beneficial to me. Having learned and experience this simple lesson – I am somewhat confused when it is rejected rather than considered – but that is the right of every person. To listen and accept what they want and reject what they will.

I would bring one other thought to this discussion – The scientific definition of intelligence is the ability to learn and modify behavior. I personally like that definition even though it is not of my making. I am not saying that it is right and I can prove it. I am offering it as a tool and food for thought. Because I have included it in my opinions of intelligent things, I realize that others can learn and modify their initial intended purpose as well as I can learn and modify my initial intended purpose in posting if we are intelligent. Not that I am right – but as another possibility to consider.
Arrakeen
Posts: 266
Joined: 25 Aug 2018, 18:49

Re: The relationship of G-d to man

Post by Arrakeen »

Watcher wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 12:14 I have also discovered that if one employs logic they will come to logical conclusions.
This is not always true. Or perhaps a conclusion may be logical, but not necessarily correct. As an engineer myself, I also place a high value on logic. However, there are serious limitations to logic alone. In the field of artificial intelligence there is a phrase "garbage in, garbage out". No matter how amazing your algorithm or logic is, if the data you input is bad or biased, the outputs will be lacking as well. Similarly, we humans are limited by our own biases, assumptions, range of experiences, and beliefs. There are many intelligent, logical people who have argued in favor of several theories about God's relationship to man. There are many other intelligent and logical people who have argued for conflicting theories or even against the idea of God altogether. Some of these people use the exact same logical principles but arrive at opposite conclusions. The problem is, all of us humans start with different datasets containing our own biases and experiences. So no matter how sound our logic is, our conclusions often reflect those biases. So the best we can do is follow our own logic with the awareness that it is influenced to some degree by our own biases, and remember to be open minded and empathetic to the experiences of others who are working with different data.

What I have attempted to do is to provide that framework of logical principles form which someone can catalog and categorize their personal experiences with G-d. That is assuming that G-d is merciful, just and as Isaiah prophesied – that he makes his “secrets” known unto man (us).

Here are the principles relisted for convenience:
1G-d will not do for any person that which they can do for themself.
2. G-d will do for any person that which they cannot do for themself.
3. G-d will not do anything for or to any person, that which is not beneficial to them.
4. G-d will do anything for or to any person, that which is beneficial to them.
5. G-d will not do anything for or to any person without their acceptance and investment. (Agency)

Principles 1 and 3 reflect a metric for justice. Principles 2 and 4 reflect a metric for mercy. Principle 5 is a corresponding logical reflection of agency. None of the principles are intended to be applied separately but rather all used together in combination (as an aggregate only – never singularly) . As both as scientist and theologian I believe that we should utilize both disciplines in this time of restoration of knowledge to better understand our relationship with G-d.

I did not intend these to be the answer to all questions but rather to provide a structure anyone can use to navigate our spiritual and physical journey through mortality to both think critically now and have hope for what is to come.
This is an interesting framework to categorize your beliefs. I used to have a similar framework consisting of what I considered the foundational truths that I was most confident in and from which I could logically reason every other part of my testimony. It was good to have a structure to "catalog and categorize" my experiences, like you said. Though in my case I eventually had personal experiences which caused me to revisit those foundational axioms and my beliefs took a different turn.

But I do think it can be a worthwhile exercise to categorize beliefs into a framework like this. Likely many members of the forum have their own frameworks that have led them to what they currently believe. Such a framework can provide structure to bring our personal beliefs together as a unified whole that allows us to then make sense of new knowledge and experiences as we gain them.
Old-Timer
Site Admin
Posts: 17243
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: The relationship of G-d to man

Post by Old-Timer »

Nobody here is acting in anger to anything that has been said here. Period.

I repeat: If your belief is that your conclusions are logical and correct, other people's conclusions are illogical and incorrect, and you need to convince others of that stance, this is not the correct place for you. That literally is in direct opposition to our mission. That is not what we created this site to do. That approach does not "fill the measure of (this site's) creation". It literally opposes and works against it.

I can't say it more clearly. Please decide if you can accept that other people's faithful views can be different than yours and be logical and acceptable - and if you can participate here without a missionary mindset of converting other people to "the truth" as you see it. If so, you are welcome to stay; if not, there are multiple other sites that suit your own mission better.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Old-Timer
Site Admin
Posts: 17243
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: The relationship of G-d to man

Post by Old-Timer »

As a personal suggestion, Watcher, I would say to pause for a few days and look through our archived posts to get a feel for how we operate and how our discussions typically flow. That might help you understand our mission and see if you believe you can support it as we structure it.

"StayLDS" can sound like a traditional, orthodox apologetic site, so I understand if we are not what you expected when you came across us. Reading through our archives could help clarify our mission and whether or not you can support it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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