Is a Sifting Coming?

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DarkJedi
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Re: Is a Sifting Coming?

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Watcher wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 22:26
SilentDawning wrote: 07 Aug 2022, 17:34 If it's coming it's of no real consequence to me, as I've already been sifted ;)

30 years ago we were at 11:59 pm of the 12:00 midnight Second Coming. The clock must be ticking AWFULLY SLOWLY. I personally agree with what others said -- that the threat of a sifting has been on the books for over a century. I think JS or one of the GA's in the early church said that the Second Coming might even happen in the lifetime of attendees' children or something. That ship has sailed...
I have speculated that when a prophesy is spoken of that someone currently alive will live to see the 2nd coming -that it is a reverence that there are individuals of the current generation that will be translated.
A little ward history (I have lived in the same ward for over 30 years but was not here at this time - well, I was, but I wasn't a member). Back in the 70s a sister in our ward joined the church after marrying a member (they met in college). Our ward did not exist in those days, a branch was formed in the early 80s and we became a ward in the late 80s. This husband moved here with is wife and went to work, she was a stay-at-home mother but did assist some in his business. All of 4 of her siblings lived here (farmers) and all joined the church in the 70s. They all got their patriarchal blessings in the late 70s/early 80s, all by the same patriarch. Our hero was the youngest of the family and at least three of them that I know of were promised in their patriarchal blessings that they would see the Savior's coming "in the flesh" (apparently this patriarch liked to do that and rumor has it he was directed to stop doing it at some point). Anyway, all but our hero are dead and she is in her late 80s and swiftly declining. The likelihood she is going to see the second coming is about as remote as her siblings'. She still believes she will.

I've heard the apologetic BS that "in the flesh" could have been referring to after the resurrection. But it is just that - BS. That patriarch (now long dead) had no business telling people that.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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PazamaManX
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Re: Is a Sifting Coming?

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DarkJedi wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 06:21 Anyway, all but our hero are dead and she is in her late 80s and swiftly declining. The likelihood she is going to see the second coming is about as remote as her siblings'. She still believes she will.

I've heard the apologetic BS that "in the flesh" could have been referring to after the resurrection. But it is just that - BS. That patriarch (now long dead) had no business telling people that.
Well I believe the resurrection is supposed to happen after the event of His coming, so they'd miss it either way. Perhaps they can watch it from some heavenly bleachers, but that wouldn't be "in the flesh".

I've always mentally raised an eyebrow anytime a patriarchal blessing mentions someone witnessing/taking part in an event related to the second coming.

I was once heard a 60ish y/o lady in poor health testify over the pulpit (admittedly she was one of the ward crazies) that her PB said she would walk with the saints to Missouri as part of the second coming. That was about 15 years ago, and I doubt she's in any better condition to make that cross country trek.

My mother-in-law's says something about her seeing it in her lifetime, so if that's to be believed we've got another 30-40 years at most. But then, if I remember correctly, her late mother's also said the same thing.

Many patriarchs have have already incorrectly placed their chips when playing second coming roulette. If no one is supposed to know the hour or day, then they, as you said, have no business narrowing it down to the narrow window of someone's life. But, maybe one of these days one of them will get lucky and be right.
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness, even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." ~ Thomas Jefferson
Roy
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Re: Is a Sifting Coming?

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I like the idea of patriarchal blessings but more as good life advice and goal setting and not at all prognostication and future divining.

I like even better the idea of actual patriarchs and matriarchs giving words of counsel and blessing to their posterity.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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DarkJedi
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Re: Is a Sifting Coming?

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Roy wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 09:50 I like the idea of patriarchal blessings but more as good life advice and goal setting and not at all prognostication and future divining.

I like even better the idea of actual patriarchs and matriarchs giving words of counsel and blessing to their posterity.
As might be guessed I don't put a lot of stock in my patriarchal blessing. My blessing was not a major component of my faith crisis but it did play a very small part, and of course it doesn't help that patriarchal blessings can be part of the well meaning but misguided advice we get when in faith crisis (similar to "read the BoM more" "pray more" "fast" "go to the temple" etc.*). At this point in my life as I near retirement I can go through the blessing that I got 40 years ago and say "Yeah, that's spot on" and "That was garbage, didn't happen and isn't going to" (there seems to be more of the latter, maybe sometime I'll make an actual list).

That said I don't think the patriarchal blessing is total garbage, it can be as you say Roy "good life advice." One thing mine says is "always pay tour debts and watch unnecessary debt," which is usually good advice. My own parental figures would have given the same advice, having lived through the Great Depression (they did in fact give such advice but more importantly they lived the principle). When our adult children ask advice (a couple of them do) we are happy to pass along our wisdom but it ends there - what they actually do is up to them. So I agree actual advice from actual matriarchs and patriarchs is better. In their absence, advice from other sages/elders that is sought might also would seem to be of value as long as it's understood it can be taken or left.

Sort of related to the topic, my patriarchal blessing gives several "I bless you with" things toward the end. Included in those are to come forth in the first resurrection as a "a Savior on Mount Zion." All the blessing seem to be predicated on doing the things in the patriarchal blessing. So I'm curious now. I know we all get the tribe thing (I'm Ephraim like almost everybody else, and I put no stock in that except that I do understand the symbolism of being adopted into the House of Israel), but is everybody similarly promised to come forth in the fist resurrection? Are there other things that are common?

*I was told all of these things in my faith crisis, which lasted a decade, and none of them did a darn thing except maybe make it worse. Some of them have different roles in my ongoing faith transition.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Watcher
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Re: Is a Sifting Coming?

Post by Watcher »

DarkJedi wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 06:21
Watcher wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 22:26
SilentDawning wrote: 07 Aug 2022, 17:34 If it's coming it's of no real consequence to me, as I've already been sifted ;)

30 years ago we were at 11:59 pm of the 12:00 midnight Second Coming. The clock must be ticking AWFULLY SLOWLY. I personally agree with what others said -- that the threat of a sifting has been on the books for over a century. I think JS or one of the GA's in the early church said that the Second Coming might even happen in the lifetime of attendees' children or something. That ship has sailed...
I have speculated that when a prophesy is spoken of that someone currently alive will live to see the 2nd coming -that it is a reverence that there are individuals of the current generation that will be translated.
A little ward history (I have lived in the same ward for over 30 years but was not here at this time - well, I was, but I wasn't a member). Back in the 70s a sister in our ward joined the church after marrying a member (they met in college). Our ward did not exist in those days, a branch was formed in the early 80s and we became a ward in the late 80s. This husband moved here with is wife and went to work, she was a stay-at-home mother but did assist some in his business. All of 4 of her siblings lived here (farmers) and all joined the church in the 70s. They all got their patriarchal blessings in the late 70s/early 80s, all by the same patriarch. Our hero was the youngest of the family and at least three of them that I know of were promised in their patriarchal blessings that they would see the Savior's coming "in the flesh" (apparently this patriarch liked to do that and rumor has it he was directed to stop doing it at some point). Anyway, all but our hero are dead and she is in her late 80s and swiftly declining. The likelihood she is going to see the second coming is about as remote as her siblings'. She still believes she will.

I've heard the apologetic BS that "in the flesh" could have been referring to after the resurrection. But it is just that - BS. That patriarch (now long dead) had no business telling people that.
It is my understanding that patriarchal blessings are not revelation for the general church. I have also speculated that patriarchal blessings can be contingent on various factors. I speculate that this is a primary reason that blessings given to an individual should not be made public. Like you – I have also wondered about human errors. I know I have made many myself in pursuit of magnifying my callings and priesthood responsibilities.

I am a little curious considering you opinion as posted on this forum. Do you believe that such errors (or BS as you have noted) will have any effect on anyone’s standing beyond this life? If not (thinking that such is consistint with your thoughts) – why do you bring it up? Why are you concerned?

I apologize if these questions bother you – I am attempting to understand the logic behind your thinking. Thanks for your efforts to converse with me. I find you to be interesting.
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PazamaManX
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Re: Is a Sifting Coming?

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DarkJedi wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 11:17 So I'm curious now. I know we all get the tribe thing (I'm Ephraim like almost everybody else, and I put no stock in that except that I do understand the symbolism of being adopted into the House of Israel), but is everybody similarly promised to come forth in the fist resurrection? Are there other things that are common?
I'm also Ephraim, with mine specifically highlighting the trait of leadership in the church. No thanks.

Mine does mention "coming forth in the morning of the first resurrection" at the end.

As for the advice and wisdom it imparts, it's fairly standard stuff you'd hear from others at church, with a few things more tailored to a millennial. Go to college and get a degree, serve a mission (the "I bless you with" attached to that one ended up being way off :roll:) and be careful with videos, music and electronic devices were some of the things mentioned.

My best friend at the time got his from the same patriarch around the same time I got mine. We compared things mentioned in our blessings and there were quite a few similarities.
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness, even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." ~ Thomas Jefferson
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DarkJedi
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Re: Is a Sifting Coming?

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PazamaManX wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 18:40 My best friend at the time got his from the same patriarch around the same time I got mine. We compared things mentioned in our blessings and there were quite a few similarities.
Three of my children have theirs from the same patriarch, a guy known to our family and who I consider to be a friend (he moved away a few years ago). Theirs also have many similarities.

I hadn't really thought about it before, leadership is associated with the tribe in mine as well. I guess if leadership includes being a bishop's counselor, high counselor, YMP, etc., then it is what it is. I doubt I will be a bishop or anything (and that's just fine with me).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction
Roy
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Is a Sifting Coming?

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Watcher wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 17:09 I am a little curious considering you opinion as posted on this forum. Do you believe that such errors (or BS as you have noted) will have any effect on anyone’s standing beyond this life? If not (thinking that such is consistint with your thoughts) – why do you bring it up? Why are you concerned?
I take the liberty to restate the question. What if some things that are promised are in error (for whatever reason - maybe part of the mind of the patriarch ends up on the page as he filters the revelation) and were not going to be fulfilled no matter what the recipient might do. However, the recipient might take inspiration and motivation from these things to make positive changes in his life and ultimately achieve after death what we believe to be his celestial reward. Is that problematic if the patriarch has the best of intentions to get it right but even if he gets it wrong the blessing will still serve to motivate?

For my answer, I think it is important to understand my backstory. My life was rocked by a traumatic event that I had falsely believed wouldn't happen because of the blessings that I had earned from G-d. I was serving as ward mission leader at the time. My wife was pregnant with our third child and she had been asked to serve in a demanding calling as Primary President. My wife usually has difficult post birth experiences and we expressed our reluctance to our bishop. He reassured us that if we were faithful in taking this calling that this birth would be easier. We accepted and he set DW apart and reiterated in the blessing in the name of the Lord that the pregnancy and birth would be made easier. Our child was stillborn and it rocked us to the core.

Our bishop meant well and had every intention of G-d fulfilling the promises that our bishop made on G-d's behalf. It did also motivate us to accept the calling and maybe someone could argue that we will be blessed for it in the next life.

However, DW and I felt lied to and betrayed on top of the grieving for our stillborn daughter. For me personally, it is very hard for me to hear things promised at church that I feel are not supported or verifiable. I do not think that anyone is lying. They are speaking the truth as they understand it and hope for it to be. However, should there be a duty to investigate and vet the accuracy of such promises before they are made over and over by well intentioned individuals and church leaders? I feel that there should be such a duty and that is why this type of practice concerns me.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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DarkJedi
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Re: Is a Sifting Coming?

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Watcher wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 17:09 It is my understanding that patriarchal blessings are not revelation for the general church. I have also speculated that patriarchal blessings can be contingent on various factors. I speculate that this is a primary reason that blessings given to an individual should not be made public. Like you – I have also wondered about human errors. I know I have made many myself in pursuit of magnifying my callings and priesthood responsibilities.
If PB are revelation at all, and I have my serious doubts, they are certainly only meant for the individual. I believe the reason members are discouraged from sharing has nothing to do with sacred things and little to do with things meant only for them. I suspect the main reason we're discouraged from sharing is that everybody will realize how generic and alike they really are. And, not sharing protects the church when those who are blessed to see the second coming in the flesh (or any other "out there" promise) doesn't happen. Mine appears to be longer than most I've seen, but you could slap any other name on there and it would be just as applicable - despite its length, it's pretty generic and I bet very similar to many others given by that same patriarch around the same time.

As to human errors, yes, we all make them, we're human. I am willing to own up to my mistakes and take responsibility for them. Most church leaders are not, probably because that would demonstrate fallibility. I know I'm not infallible, many do not know that they are also not infallible and try to hide behind the "cloak of the priesthood." There's that old saying "Catholics say the pope is infallible but don’t really believe it; Mormons say the prophet is fallible but don’t really believe it." Beyond Uchtdorf's hint of the idea mistakes may have been made, the church could gain a lot of traction by admitting it and its leaders are not always right and sometimes they don't treat people (or groups of people) right.
I am a little curious considering you opinion as posted on this forum. Do you believe that such errors (or BS as you have noted) will have any effect on anyone’s standing beyond this life? If not (thinking that such is consistint with your thoughts) – why do you bring it up? Why are you concerned?
It's not the human errors that are BS, it's the apologetics. I have no problem with apologists (defined as defenders of the faith) themselves, but I also understand why some (like Terryl Givens ) eschew the label. Like everything else, I can believe what apologists say or not - I have free will in that respect and I exercise it. The problem I really have is with some of the apologetics (not apologists per se) themselves. Let's take a fictional modern Job as an example. Let's say our Job consistently does everything he's supposed to do, multiple daily prayers, family prayer, FHE, accepting any and all callings and doing his best, fasting more than just fast Sunday, reading the BoM every day, going to the temple regularly and doing work for his own ancestors, paying a generous tithe on more than gross and generous with other offerings as well - you name it, he does it, the truest and bluest of all church all the time Mormons. Then a big bump in the road comes along, let' say he loses his job and can't find one on which he can support his family. And for the sake of argument, let's say he does take multiple minimum wage jobs where he's working 7 days a week 12-18 hours a day (he's doing what he can). His bishop's advice is continue doing what he's doing (including all the church stuff, but especially fasting, prayer, and reading the BoM) and he will be blessed with a job. Ditto from the SP. Our Job has faith that they are correct. This goes on for over a year, while he's already been doing all of these things leading up to this time all of his life (including of course being an Eagle Scout, serving a mission, and marrying a worthy woman in the temple). What is the likely response he'll get from the True Believing Mormon (TBM)? "You're not doing enough" and/or "You're not doing it right." (Don't try to tell us that's not true, more than one of us here have been there and done that.) That guy is going to believe some combination of he's done something wrong or offended God in some way, that there's some reason he is being cursed, that he is unworthy of God's blessings, God does not love him, and he's a worthless piece of crap and similar thoughts. He'll eventually come to the realization that all of the prayer and fasting and reading the BoM and paying tens (or hundreds) of thousands in tithing, etc., do not bring blessings at all and God and the church are not what he thought they were. But his TBM friends (and maybe his wife who is seeing all this first hand and also suffering) say, "Maybe the answer answer to your prayer was no or not yet" and a myriad of other BS excuses (that's what they are, BS, because the TBM can't admit to himself that it isn't so and it doesn't really work that way because he hasn't had the experience).

The question here, although misconstruing what I said, is do I believe people will be held responsible for their errors in this life (or their standing in this life)? My answer is no, as I have previously stated I believe God neither blesses nor curses people in this life. Members and leaders on the other hand can be very judgmental. While I'm at it, I also hope (I usually say believe but it's really more of a hope than a belief, I'm just speaking Mormonese) the atonement of Jesus Christ to be universal and it won't affect their standing in any future state either. I bring it up because if I could spare anyone from enduring the extreme pains of a faith crisis, I would, and if apologists would just be honest and not make BS excuses there would be fewer people who do suffer.

Old Timer uses a Harry Potter analogy sometimes. Harry Potter could see thestrals, but most others could not. It is explained that only those who had seen death and had an emotional connection to it could see thestrals. Those who had not could not see the thestrals and some didn't even believe they exist or doubted that those who could see them actually saw them. You have not given any indication here that you have experienced a crisis of faith with it's accompanying deep, dark pain (there are levels of the dark night of the soul). Most of us here see the thestrals, I understand why you don't/can't. Our job here is not to try to convince anyone they can't see the thestrals or that the thestrals are something they aren't, nor is it to convince those who can't see the thestrals that they actually exist. What we do is empathize (and sympathize) and validate. We're not here to convince anybody they aren't experiencing or didn't experience anything they are/did. Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it didn't happen to me, and just because it happened to you when you added X+Y and got Z doesn't mean it's going to work the same way with me. I also have not gone to a grove of trees and asked God to forgive me and then seen a vision of God (or Gods). That doesn't mean it didn't happen to Joseph Smith (or at least JS believed it happened whether I do or not).
I apologize if these questions bother you – I am attempting to understand the logic behind your thinking. Thanks for your efforts to converse with me. I find you to be interesting.
I am not that thin skinned. Not everything is logical Spock (or Tuvok or T'Pal). There are many things we humans can't explain with science or faith. I would guess that Vulcans are resistant to or immune from Jedi mind tricks. Few humans are, thus apologetics (and the church itself) can thrive. It's not well well known, and it's only inferred and not depicted in movies and TV, but the Jedi mind trick is temporary. In a short while the individuals who are vulnerable and victims of such tricks end up wondering what the heck they're doing an why.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction
Roy
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Is a Sifting Coming?

Post by Roy »

Roy wrote: 16 Aug 2022, 08:39 He reassured us that if we were faithful in taking this calling that this birth would be easier. We accepted and he set DW apart and reiterated in the blessing in the name of the Lord that the pregnancy and birth would be made easier.
In re-reading my response I feel I may need to emphasize a point. My bishop made us promises at least in part because he needed DW to accept the calling invitation. He needed to motivate us to fulfill the needs of the local church unit.

I have concerns when a church leader makes promises on behalf of G-d that they might reasonably know that they cannot guarantee (if they were to do any investigation or critical thinking on the matter) and makes these promises in order to extract commitments from church members to serve church needs.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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