lazy and lax - April 2021

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Arrakeen
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Joined: 25 Aug 2018, 18:49

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by Arrakeen » 06 Apr 2021, 13:00

Ann wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 12:24
The first person I heard from after this talk was one of my 20-something kids, a sincere and hard-working person who was devastated by a faith crisis. The gist of her conclusion: I guess I made the right decision to leave. There isn’t a place for me in the Church.
This is something I'm still dealing with. I like many things about the church and would gladly participate if they could accept me as I am, doubts and all, without trying to "rescue" me or blame me for my loss of faith. But hearing things like this from the top leaders of the church really does make me wonder if I might as well leave, since it seems there really isn't a place for "doubters". I stopped listening to general authority talks a while ago after some YSA/BYU devotionals on doubt that really upset me.

It seems like a lot of people are taught that any challenge to faith can be overcome by prayer, scripture study, diligence, etc and so if anyone loses their faith or can't develop a testimony it must be because they didn't do those things enough. We seem to like to believe in "the formula". They even taught us in the MTC that testimony is like a math equation, with the right inputs (study, faith, prayer, etc) you always get the same result (testimony of the Book of Mormon, etc). Honestly I used to believe that too to some extent, and in the beginning of my faith crisis I tried to study/pray/temple my way back into a testimony, but discovered it just didn't work like that. But I can see how people who have never been through a loss of faith could still think that way.

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bridget_night
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by bridget_night » 06 Apr 2021, 13:59

When I grew up in the church it was encouraged to question and get your own confirmation from God. Early leaders like Hugh B. Brown would say things like, "he who has never doubted has never thought." J. Reuben Clark said the church should be investigated and exposed if wrong. So what changed?

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DarkJedi
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by DarkJedi » 06 Apr 2021, 14:43

bridget_night wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 13:59
When I grew up in the church it was encouraged to question and get your own confirmation from God. Early leaders like Hugh B. Brown would say things like, "he who has never doubted has never thought." J. Reuben Clark said the church should be investigated and exposed if wrong. So what changed?
I actually thought this was the premise behind Come Follow Me. Silly me.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by Roy » 06 Apr 2021, 14:48

bridget_night wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 13:59
When I grew up in the church it was encouraged to question and get your own confirmation from God. Early leaders like Hugh B. Brown would say things like, "he who has never doubted has never thought." J. Reuben Clark said the church should be investigated and exposed if wrong. So what changed?
I think 2 things changed.
1) correlation happened. There used to be many different flavors of Mormonism. That variability allowed more variation. Unfortunately, that allowed some flavors that we are probably happy to see go - like borderline fundamentalist Mormons or white supremacist Mormons. Correlation was a double edged sword in reducing the "extremes".
2) I think that Hugh B. Brown and J. Reuben Clark were more outliers themselves. We could find quotes by Elder Uchtdorf and say "What changed?" but that might not capture what is happening. The men of church leadership are not a monolith. They have their different personalities and perspectives. At the end of the day, they are all on the same team and working for the same positive goals despite their differences.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Roy
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by Roy » 06 Apr 2021, 14:51

Arrakeen wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 13:00
We seem to like to believe in "the formula". They even taught us in the MTC that testimony is like a math equation, with the right inputs (study, faith, prayer, etc) you always get the same result (testimony of the Book of Mormon, etc).
I remember a missionary telling me that the Mission's smoking cessation program had a 100% success rate for those that really wanted to quit. Even as a TBM, I knew that particular claim would not hold up to scrutiny.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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nibbler
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by nibbler » 06 Apr 2021, 14:55

Roy wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 14:51
I remember a missionary telling me that the Mission's smoking cessation program had a 100% success rate for those that really wanted to quit.
No true ex-smoker. If they didn't quit smoking they must have not really wanted to quit.

Ann
Posts: 2579
Joined: 09 Sep 2012, 02:17

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by Ann » 06 Apr 2021, 17:49

bridget_night wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 13:59
When I grew up in the church it was encouraged to question and get your own confirmation from God. Early leaders like Hugh B. Brown would say things like, "he who has never doubted has never thought." J. Reuben Clark said the church should be investigated and exposed if wrong. So what changed?
Another big change is the sheer amount of information out there.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

Ann
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Joined: 09 Sep 2012, 02:17

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by Ann » 06 Apr 2021, 22:53

nibbler wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 11:35
But seriously, I don't think his perspective allows him to be able to feel the plight of the doubter. I know I wouldn't have before I had experienced it myself.
I agree that I wouldn’t have before experiencing it myself. But I’m a nobody, not the person charged with leading all the members. Why the out-of-place swipe on Easter Sunday morning of all times? This was a talk that began with, “Christ changed each of our lives forever.”
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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DarkJedi
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by DarkJedi » 07 Apr 2021, 06:53

Roy wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 14:48
bridget_night wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 13:59
When I grew up in the church it was encouraged to question and get your own confirmation from God. Early leaders like Hugh B. Brown would say things like, "he who has never doubted has never thought." J. Reuben Clark said the church should be investigated and exposed if wrong. So what changed?
I think 2 things changed.
1) correlation happened. There used to be many different flavors of Mormonism. That variability allowed more variation. Unfortunately, that allowed some flavors that we are probably happy to see go - like borderline fundamentalist Mormons or white supremacist Mormons. Correlation was a double edged sword in reducing the "extremes".
2) I think that Hugh B. Brown and J. Reuben Clark were more outliers themselves. We could find quotes by Elder Uchtdorf and say "What changed?" but that might not capture what is happening. The men of church leadership are not a monolith. They have their different personalities and perspectives. At the end of the day, they are all on the same team and working for the same positive goals despite their differences.
I agree correlation happened and was a two edge sword. My studies of early Mormon history indicate that other flavors were not only accepted but were encouraged early (for the most part, there were some exceptions with extreme views or those that claimed to receive revelation and weren't named Joseph Smith.

I also agree that Brown and Clark were outliers - but they did something about it. They were directly responsible for calling the ultra conservative apostles that were in power until recently and of which a vestige (although somewhat less conservative) remains. I think for the most part the pendulum has swung in the other direction as far as the Q15 go - but I don't know when it reaches its end and starts to swing back again.

I mentioned Come Follow Me previously, and I do believe the home centered church supported idea was meant to allow us to think for ourselves and come to our own conclusions and testimonies. I just don't think many church members (and some leaders) were ready for it.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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nibbler
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Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by nibbler » 07 Apr 2021, 07:58

I don't know the true intention but guessing:
1) They bit the bullet and did away with the 3rd hour. Come follow me was introduced at the same time. Culturally more is better than less so the program was added to say that we're not really requiring less by getting rid of the 3rd hour. It was also the answer to the question, what do we do now that Sunday School is only twice a month? How are people going to retain the lessons we're removing from the calendar?
2) Asking people to study the lesson at home and come to SS/PH/RS prepared has always been a thing. The come follow was a fresh coat of paint on that concept. "Home centered, church supported" was a new catchphrase to help remind people that they should be studying lessons mid-week.

I'm sure gaining independence factored in there somewhere, if nothing more than to ensure people weren't missing out by having one hour less of church each week.

If the goal was truly to get members to think for themselves I'd say they failed. You don't have to stick with them, but the lessons in the come follow me manuals are chock-full of indoctrination. If the goal was to get people to think for themselves the lessons could have been a simple, "Read Luke chapters 1-5 and discuss with family."

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