lazy and lax - April 2021

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Ann
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lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by Ann » 05 Apr 2021, 20:25

I see posts touching on this in another thread, but wondered if dwelling on it there would derail the OP.

I couldn’t believe it. What a thing to say. I could use some help processing it, because to me, this is very revealing and disappointing.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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DarkJedi
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by DarkJedi » 06 Apr 2021, 02:57

I think you're going to have to be a bit more specific in what you're talking about.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SamBee
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by SamBee » 06 Apr 2021, 03:12

Ebowalker mentions it elsewhere:
Your mountains will vary. And yet the answer to each of your challenges is to increase your faith. That takes work .
Lazy learners and lax disciples will always struggle to muster even a particle of faith.
To do anything well requires effort.
So many mixed feelings about this. Are there lazy and lax people? Yes. But what about the people who are the opposite and struggle.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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nibbler
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by nibbler » 06 Apr 2021, 06:05

There are a couple of accounts in the Bible:
Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Maybe this Jesus doesn't exist in scripture but I prefer the Jesus that takes whatever faith someone has, however small, and magnifies it by making up the difference. I'm not a fan of the Jesus that belittles faith for not being strong enough... even though I'm guilty of the latter far too often. :(
I'm not running away. Im already gone.
— Kami Garcia

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DarkJedi
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by DarkJedi » 06 Apr 2021, 07:09

Gotcha. I do recall hearing that part, but honestly I was trying to ignore Nelson's talk. But this did pop into my mind when he said it:
One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”

Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.
(Uchtdorf, Oct. 2013)

None of the Q15 has really beat the drum of doubt the past couple conferences (that I recall anyway), so it was probably time.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Roy
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by Roy » 06 Apr 2021, 09:45

Don’t you dare bail. I’m so furious with people who leave this church. I don’t know whether furious is a good apostolic word. (Crowd laughter). But I am. And I say, what on earth kind of conviction is that? What kind of paddy-cake, taffy-pulled experience is that? As if none of this ever mattered, as if nothing in our contemporary life mattered? As if this is all supposed to be just exactly the way I want it and answered every one of my questions and pursue this and occupy that, decide this, and then maybe I’ll be a Latter-day Saint. Well, there is too much Irish in me for that.
This recent comment from RMN reminds me of the quote above from Elder Holland.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Ann
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by Ann » 06 Apr 2021, 10:47

Sorry about my cryptic OP. I was upset, and didn’t give context.

This is *the* talk that will be taught in RS/EQ in the coming six months and I feel that Pres. Nelson may have given permission with his example to dismiss and belittle doubters. We aren’t “rehearsing” our doubts “with other doubters.” Many of us are heartbroken and looking for a way to hang on. I wasn’t “hoping to find a flaw in the fabric of a prophet’s life.” I faced waves of disturbing information that gave rise to real questions, real distrust.

Thousands of LDS families have been torn apart by faith crises, and here is a talk saying that the strugglers are just doing it wrong. That’s all, nothing to see. No empathy needed. No curiosity about what troubles them. It’s okay to call them lazy and lax. If their personal journey takes them out of the church, it can’t have been God working in their lives.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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nibbler
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by nibbler » 06 Apr 2021, 11:35

It tells me that Nelson doesn't understand the position of the doubter. Perhaps he's a lazy learner. :angel:

But seriously, I don't think his perspective allows him to be able to feel the plight of the doubter. I know I wouldn't have before I had experienced it myself.

I had completely forgotten the rehearsing doubts comment. He's dead wrong. People are searching for support and are even more hurt when they find that their church leaders have made them out to be an enemy, said things to silence them, or said things that make it harder for them to find the support they need.

It was a bad talk. I'm sure people who have left weren't his audience but does he think people that "doubt" will come back when they hear a talk like this?
I'm not running away. Im already gone.
— Kami Garcia

AmyJ
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by AmyJ » 06 Apr 2021, 12:09

Ann wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 10:47
Sorry about my cryptic OP. I was upset, and didn’t give context.

This is *the* talk that will be taught in RS/EQ in the coming six months and I feel that Pres. Nelson may have given permission with his example to dismiss and belittle doubters. We aren’t “rehearsing” our doubts “with other doubters.” Many of us are heartbroken and looking for a way to hang on. I wasn’t “hoping to find a flaw in the fabric of a prophet’s life.” I faced waves of disturbing information that gave rise to real questions, real distrust.

This. Some of my family members get that I am more agnostic in my belief narrative - but then they are dumb-founded when it comes up that because I am still struggling with believing in God, other figures and teachings like Jesus Christ and the Atonement are also out the window.
Ann wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 10:47
Thousands of LDS families have been torn apart by faith crises, and here is a talk saying that the strugglers are just doing it wrong. That’s all, nothing to see. No empathy needed. No curiosity about what troubles them. It’s okay to call them lazy and lax. If their personal journey takes them out of the church, it can’t have been God working in their lives.
I wish that someone had taught me that ALL marriages are "mixed-faith" marriages, even if some are more "mixed" than others because each . I got the memo about "being one" and "being united" and all that jazzy stuff - but I missed the memo (and tips) about how to navigate the marital space, and anything that normalized having a different degree of faith in my marriage. This site is the space that taught me anything about how to navigate being married and having faith period. I have dabbled in podcasts and such since then, but here is where the rubber hit the road as it were.

Ann
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Re: lazy and lax - April 2021

Post by Ann » 06 Apr 2021, 12:24

The first person I heard from after this talk was one of my 20-something kids, a sincere and hard-working person who was devastated by a faith crisis. The gist of her conclusion: I guess I made the right decision to leave. There isn’t a place for me in the Church.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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