I need to come clean

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
Kipper
Posts: 292
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 07:45

Re: I need to come clean

Post by Kipper » 15 Jun 2019, 12:02

SilentDawning wrote:
15 Jun 2019, 06:35
I don't feel that I fully understand the issues clearly in this case. You would like out of your calling, but there are also issues with past mistakes, career development, and supporting your family. You would like to talk to local leaders, but we all know that is a dead end, potentially harmful to your situation, and not advised....but I am not sure how it all ties together....if you care to explain it more clearly, that might help with giving an informed opinion.
Sorry about being unclear, I don't have any desire to be out of my current calling as Ward Clerk. I just feel as if my heart is not in it however I can perform my duties I need to. The next calling, whatever it may be is what I am concerned about because I feel more like stepping back than progressing. Also, my input at bishopric meetings use to be valued but is now dismissed more often than not. I was asked to give a talk on tithing about a year ago and I turned it down and haven't been approached since. I think they sense my lack of commitment but don't care why. There is a reason why and I am going to be honest about it. Come what may.

I am not having gospel issues and church history is something I can suppress without frustration at least for now. What I can't deal with is what I am going through in my personal life, the results of being compelled as a newly activated member all those years ago to serve in a calling that knocked me right out of my pursuit to better myself, finish my degree, fulfill a life long dream in aviation, used up ten's of thousands of dollars on the way and more but I realize I am getting a little hot inside and spouting more than I really need to. I don't trust anyone who doesn't want to be honest with me and I internally question everything any leader preaches about. It isn't getting any better by just keeping everything in my head.


Some of the details can be found here.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8732

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SilentDawning
Posts: 7348
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: I need to come clean

Post by SilentDawning » 16 Jun 2019, 08:44

I read through the viewtopic you gave -- that helped.

If I were to summarize your concerns.

1. You sort of resent all the time invested in callings you haven't wanted lately. You find leaders are persistent in asking you to do callings you don't want (they asked 3 times in one case).

2. You feel that all the time you put into the YM calling distracted you from your aviation dream when you were so close and had spent so much on pursuing that dream.

3. You have regrets that church callings have interfered with setting a good example to your son. Time invested in church callings detracted from achieving something significant.

4. You also feel a bit duped by local leaders who, in acting in the belief they are part of an inspired, holy institution, really didn't know what was best for you, when you thought perhaps they did at one time. But then you found they weren't correct, hence the sense of betrayal. So this has led to outcomes 2 and 3 in this list.

5. You feel the window has closed for pursuing the aviation dream and setting a good example for your son, which causes a certain amount of anxiety and a case of the blues.

6. You talked to your HPGL and he resorted to the standard read and pray, and then cited Satan's influence (unhelpful in my view).

7. The Bishopric seems not to attach any weight to your input in Bishopric meeting.

If I have this right, then for me, much of this can be resolved with boundaries. Here are some things to consider:

1. This could mean asking for a release from your calling. I think a calling that distances you from your leaders might be helpful, as they are partly the source of your angst. You will need to craft a good reason for it. We can help, I am sure.

2. When getting released, have an idea of where you want to serve and share it. Refuse callings as often as you need to -- until they get it right.

3. You will have to throw away an value you attach to your reputation in the Ward. After you cross that line, everything gets a lot easier, believe me. In your case, the position is lower profile that you hold, so I don't consider this a major sacrifice -- in my case I was the HPGL.

4. Find new achievements that set the example for your son. You can decide what those achievements are -- perhaps progression in your own career? Service in the community regarding a mission you absolutely love? I will confess -- service in the community is MUCH easier than in the church. You can do it on your own terms, you can quit when it's too much, and you have far more interesting opportunities to serve.

I hope I have the summary of your issues correct. Again, I suggest NOT sharing anything with local leaders. Talk here and create your strategy, which includes how you will manage the local people. They can make your life difficult if you are too open about your true feelings -- and the pablum you get, as you did from your HPGL a few years ago, isn't helpful. Remember, they are not counselors, and they are limited in what they can say or even empathize with. They aren't a fertile place to go in these situations, believe me. Better to talk to people on StaYLDS who understand the kind of distance you are feeling and be completely honest about it. And there are no consequences for you at all, as we don't know who your local leaders are, and wouldn't run to them even if we knew.

Good luck -- please let me know if I got the list of concerns right and if I missed any.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Kipper
Posts: 292
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 07:45

Re: I need to come clean

Post by Kipper » 16 Jun 2019, 10:06

Amazing SD. Not just that you hear me and got you summary right but that you devoted much of your time and energy to researching and understanding my issue as well as offering strategies and advice. Not sure I deserve all this but it is definitely critical to my going forward. I'll concentrate on enjoying my fathers day and thinking about my next steps for a few days then check back in here. Thanks.

SilentDawning wrote:
16 Jun 2019, 08:44
I read through the viewtopic you gave -- that helped.

If I were to summarize your concerns.

1. You sort of resent all the time invested in callings you haven't wanted lately. You find leaders are persistent in asking you to do callings you don't want (they asked 3 times in one case).

2. You feel that all the time you put into the YM calling distracted you from your aviation dream when you were so close and had spent so much on pursuing that dream.

3. You have regrets that church callings have interfered with setting a good example to your son. Time invested in church callings detracted from achieving something significant.

4. You also feel a bit duped by local leaders who, in acting in the belief they are part of an inspired, holy institution, really didn't know what was best for you, when you thought perhaps they did at one time. But then you found they weren't correct, hence the sense of betrayal. So this has led to outcomes 2 and 3 in this list.

5. You feel the window has closed for pursuing the aviation dream and setting a good example for your son, which causes a certain amount of anxiety and a case of the blues.

6. You talked to your HPGL and he resorted to the standard read and pray, and then cited Satan's influence (unhelpful in my view).

7. The Bishopric seems not to attach any weight to your input in Bishopric meeting.

If I have this right, then for me, much of this can be resolved with boundaries. Here are some things to consider:

1. This could mean asking for a release from your calling. I think a calling that distances you from your leaders might be helpful, as they are partly the source of your angst. You will need to craft a good reason for it. We can help, I am sure.

2. When getting released, have an idea of where you want to serve and share it. Refuse callings as often as you need to -- until they get it right.

3. You will have to throw away an value you attach to your reputation in the Ward. After you cross that line, everything gets a lot easier, believe me. In your case, the position is lower profile that you hold, so I don't consider this a major sacrifice -- in my case I was the HPGL.

4. Find new achievements that set the example for your son. You can decide what those achievements are -- perhaps progression in your own career? Service in the community regarding a mission you absolutely love? I will confess -- service in the community is MUCH easier than in the church. You can do it on your own terms, you can quit when it's too much, and you have far more interesting opportunities to serve.

I hope I have the summary of your issues correct. Again, I suggest NOT sharing anything with local leaders. Talk here and create your strategy, which includes how you will manage the local people. They can make your life difficult if you are too open about your true feelings -- and the pablum you get, as you did from your HPGL a few years ago, isn't helpful. Remember, they are not counselors, and they are limited in what they can say or even empathize with. They aren't a fertile place to go in these situations, believe me. Better to talk to people on StaYLDS who understand the kind of distance you are feeling and be completely honest about it. And there are no consequences for you at all, as we don't know who your local leaders are, and wouldn't run to them even if we knew.

Good luck -- please let me know if I got the list of concerns right and if I missed any.

Minyan Man
Posts: 1999
Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Re: I need to come clean

Post by Minyan Man » 16 Jun 2019, 11:06

Are you willing to accept another calling in the Church? It is easier for the Bishop to accept your release if you can suggest other callings where
you are willing to serve. If yes, I have a suggestion.
I really like be the Family History Coordinator. For the following reasons:
- There is very little oversight. No ward meetings. I can say no to the Stake training meetings.
- There are no meetings with the Bishop & Ward counsel.
- There are very few talks or presentations to make.
- I usually work by myself. Usually at home & set my own schedule.
- If I train someone, it is one on one with no set lesson plan. It can be done at church after the meetings.
- Members are really grateful when you solve a problem for them. It breaks the ice for future social interaction.
- It lets me do my own family history under the guise of being active in specific calling.
- It is fun to show my family something new I've discovered about our family.
- Periodically you can go with the youth to do Baptisms & Confirmations in the Temple, if you so desire.

What I'm trying to say is: there are options. This is just one.
I'm sure there are others on this forum that can help make suggestions too.

Kipper
Posts: 292
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 07:45

Re: I need to come clean

Post by Kipper » 16 Jun 2019, 20:53

Thanks MM, appreciate the suggestions.
Minyan Man wrote:
16 Jun 2019, 11:06
Are you willing to accept another calling in the Church? It is easier for the Bishop to accept your release if you can suggest other callings where
you are willing to serve. If yes, I have a suggestion.
I really like be the Family History Coordinator. For the following reasons:
- There is very little oversight. No ward meetings. I can say no to the Stake training meetings.
- There are no meetings with the Bishop & Ward counsel.
- There are very few talks or presentations to make.
- I usually work by myself. Usually at home & set my own schedule.
- If I train someone, it is one on one with no set lesson plan. It can be done at church after the meetings.
- Members are really grateful when you solve a problem for them. It breaks the ice for future social interaction.
- It lets me do my own family history under the guise of being active in specific calling.
- It is fun to show my family something new I've discovered about our family.
- Periodically you can go with the youth to do Baptisms & Confirmations in the Temple, if you so desire.

What I'm trying to say is: there are options. This is just one.
I'm sure there are others on this forum that can help make suggestions too.

Roy
Posts: 6217
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: I need to come clean

Post by Roy » 17 Jun 2019, 10:33

Kipper wrote:
15 Jun 2019, 00:24
In a way I'm letting people down by my substandard participation and contributions and they deserve to know why. It's not just a matter of getting it off my chest, it has to do with being honest and looking for some honesty in return. I don't know what to expect or what my explanation will turn into but either way I am going to be truthful. I'm not sure I will receive the same.
I think I understand where you are coming from. I think the best that you can hope for is an apology. I actually feel there is a fair chance that you might get one. I am not sure if it will feel better or worse. Especially if it is one of those "I'm sorry if you feel that..." sort of non-apologies.

I do feel like a second class citizen at church. My participation and contributions are not meeting expectations so I suppose I am seen as a sort of half-mile runner. To me it seems that the church asks for so much that I am saying no all the time. For example, just last weekend we were contacted about a service project for my son (Dads also requested), a request to help someone move, a request for DW and I to substitute a SS class in a few weeks, my wife received a request to bring in a meal for an ailing individual, and my daughter was asked to give a talk in church next Sunday (when she accepted her current calling as YW class president she did so on condition that she would never have to speak in SM). All of these things are in addition to the callings that DW and I perform in the church and we have to say no to most of them. These requests are in no way coordinated, they are just tiny examples of the innumerable impositions that the church tends to make upon us.

I also do not pay tithing. This is perhaps the biggest item that makes me feel lesser than. In my meetings with my Bishop on the subject of tithing, I am made to feel like a dead beat father that is delinquent in child support payments and giving excuses as to why I can't pay. Super emasculating and demoralizing. However, I feel like the only alternative would be to communicate that I am not convinced that I owe the church any money. I worry that would paint me as defiant and apostate.
SilentDawning wrote:
16 Jun 2019, 08:44
You will have to throw away an value you attach to your reputation in the Ward. After you cross that line, everything gets a lot easier, believe me.
For me and my current situation and goals it is better for me to be seen as a less committed, perhaps lazy, member of weak and struggling faith than to be seen as defiant or apostate or even just agnostic non-believer. I do not consider the church as my primary social group and I do not rely on my reputation in the church for my self actualization. However I do want to be able to ordain my son to the priesthood when he turns 18 and perhaps witness my children's weddings in the temple some day.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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SilentDawning
Posts: 7348
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: I need to come clean

Post by SilentDawning » 17 Jun 2019, 22:47

Roy wrote:
17 Jun 2019, 10:33
For me and my current situation and goals it is better for me to be seen as a less committed, perhaps lazy, member of weak and struggling faith than to be seen as defiant or apostate or even just agnostic non-believer. I do not consider the church as my primary social group and I do not rely on my reputation in the church for my self actualization. However I do want to be able to ordain my son to the priesthood when he turns 18 and perhaps witness my children's weddings in the temple some day.
This is the way I see it. Stay connected, involved, perhaps be present at ordinances that you're allowed to attend. If they prevent you, well, I guess it's their rules.

In my case I could have seen my daughter married, but my daughter discouraged it. She didn't want me to be inauthentic and get a TR for the sake of the wedding only to renig. So I didn't. It wasn't so bad. No one said anything, I was there for the pictures afterwards. I gave her away at a ring ceremony. My Bishop didn't care enough to even contact me about it, even after my wife went in for the TR to attend the wedding, which shows me again, the organization cares little for some of its members. I actually felt afterwards that I had made my own sacrifices given what I'd lost anyway -- status in our Ward, respect from certain extended family members, etcetera. It only deepened my commitment to personal freedom, to doing things my own way, and not letting the church extract everything from me as they please.

But back to Kipper, who has some decisions to make, or to simply hold the status quote. Interested in how this situation plays out...
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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Rumin8
Posts: 99
Joined: 25 Mar 2018, 14:00

Re: I need to come clean

Post by Rumin8 » 04 Jul 2019, 14:25

Just wanted to check in and say from one struggling ward clerk to another, I salute you. Hang in there!
"Moderation in all things, especially moderation." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Be excellent to each other." - Abraham Lincoln to Bill & Ted

Kipper
Posts: 292
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 07:45

Re: I need to come clean

Post by Kipper » 04 Jul 2019, 16:04

Rumin8 wrote:
04 Jul 2019, 14:25
Just wanted to check in and say from one struggling ward clerk to another, I salute you. Hang in there!
Thank you, you 2. I have some things drafted and will be back soon.

Mordimor
Posts: 14
Joined: 23 Mar 2016, 00:12

Re: I need to come clean

Post by Mordimor » 21 Jul 2019, 22:34

My husband and I got called in for a TR interview and we had been putting it off for a while. Like 6+ months. We knew that it could be bad but we didn’t want to lie. We had a frank conversation with our bishop, told him we had contemplated leaving the church, that we didn’t feel comfortable having or even thinking of going to the temple at this time, that we were moving slowly and cautiously because we have children living at home invested in the church. We were really open ended with it. We had a pleasant conversation. But, BUT with a different type of bishop it could be really hard/terrible.

I knew our bishop well enough before this to know that 1. He is so kind. 2. His goal is for the ward to feel the love of HF and JC. 3. He does care about us but is understanding to everyone being in their own place. It also helps that I am friends with his wife and mutual friends.

When or if we have another discussion with a different bishop it could be hard and it could cause us to leave. We will get there when/if it happens. Proceed with caution.

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