Isn't it doctrinally correct to say that God NEVER changes others in answer to our prayers because to do so would violate the agency of another?It’s useful to remember that God doesn’t always answer our prayers by changing others but that sometimes we are changed as we reach out to the Lord.
Should I feel guilty?
Re: Should I feel guilty?
The following sentence from the second link that you shared also rubbed me the wrong way:
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Re: Should I feel guilty?
There are many LDS scriptures which state that God "softened their hearts", not to mention God has been awfully persuasive with both miracles and "smitings". I'd even go so far as to say, doctrinally, trying to change others is all God does. But then that brings us back to the old topic of "does anyone really have agency, and what does that mean?" It's not a cut-and-dry doctrine at any rate.
Last edited by dande48 on 26 Mar 2019, 05:58, edited 1 time in total.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole
"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket
"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket
Re: Should I feel guilty?
Interesting point of view. As someone who leans deist (and probably unitarian) I'd say God doesn't do any of that. Of course that leaves the question of what God does do. Maybe God really is more like the probably illiterate God of the TV show Miracle Workers.dande48 wrote: ↑25 Mar 2019, 21:46There are many LDS scriptures which state that God "softened their hearts", not to mention God has been awfully persuasive with both miracles and "smitings". I'd even go so far as to say, doctrinally, trying to change others is all God does. But then that brings us back to the old topic of "does anyone really have angency, and what does that mean?" It's not a cut-and-dry doctrine at any rate.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Re: Should I feel guilty?
Well, I wasn't saying it was my point of view, just what I interpret as the point of view of those who wrote the scriptures. I do think it's kind of interesting that people just accept they should love and worship a extra-terrestrial extra-dimensional being whose intelligence, capabilities, and mere existence is beyond human comprehension. It's also interesting that we attribute it characteristics such as "good" and "loving", when its morality seems so vastly removed from our own. If such a being did exist, I think we should be happy when it seems to be sleeping, and try our best not to wake it.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole
"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket
"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket
-
Curt Sunshine
- Site Admin
- Posts: 16842
- Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24
Re: Should I feel guilty?
I hate that quote. I have no problem with seeing family success as important, but I hate that quote.
The End.
The End.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: Should I feel guilty?
I'm pretty much with Curt. The problem I have goes back to the original question. What constitutes failure - or success - in the home, and whose decision is it? We're all - every single one of us - successful at some things and not at other things. That's what the atonement of Christ is all about.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
-
LadyofRadiantJoy
- Posts: 28
- Joined: 12 Jul 2018, 09:41
Re: Should I feel guilty?
The way we talk about it at church it is taken to mean that success is sons going on missions, children marrying in temples, staying active, serving in callings and paying tithing and all that stuff. Yet, you can raise children who do all of that stuff and have bad relationships with your children. Parents can raise children to be stoically faithful all their lives, while being abusive parents. No one wants to talk about that because only "righteous" parents can raise children so faithful. I have known people at church who experienced child abuse but then say, "but hey, at least all of us kids had the gospel and went on children" which totally minimizes the very real pain they experienced. It's really sad.
Re: Should I feel guilty?
It seems to me that people get stuck, finding some comfortable place between no relationship with God and being in his presence, saying here but no further. They resist the Holy Ghost.
Re: Should I feel guilty?
I honestly don't know how to respond to this.
You have been warned about being judgemental. Knock it off.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
My Introduction
Re: Should I feel guilty?
This is what I have been struggling to live by since I went on a mission. The mission showed me how toxic my childhood was despite doing all the "right" things (baptism, priesthood, Eagle Scout, seminary, mission). Coming home from my mission I fell back into the toxic trap and went off to college after a year. I am now married to someone who was also in a toxic family environment and did not have the gospel support. So having such a different perspective in my new marriage helps me to realize that just because I had all the blessings of the gospel doesn't mean I was going to feel happy.LadyofRadiantJoy wrote: ↑12 Apr 2019, 21:05The way we talk about it at church it is taken to mean that success is sons going on missions, children marrying in temples, staying active, serving in callings and paying tithing and all that stuff. Yet, you can raise children who do all of that stuff and have bad relationships with your children. Parents can raise children to be stoically faithful all their lives, while being abusive parents. No one wants to talk about that because only "righteous" parents can raise children so faithful. I have known people at church who experienced child abuse but then say, "but hey, at least all of us kids had the gospel and went on children" which totally minimizes the very real pain they experienced. It's really sad.