Pope endorses same sex civil unions

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DarkJedi
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Pope endorses same sex civil unions

Post by DarkJedi » 21 Oct 2020, 09:27

This is being reported on multiple news sources, I first saw it on the SL Trib site but I'm linking to the AP story:

https://apnews.com/article/race-and-eth ... bda2013de2

I don't know if the church has so much been an ally of the Catholic Church in this respect or if the church just tags along with them since they comprise the majority of Christians worldwide and espouse the same views as the church. At any rate, I think the church may now have to reconsider whatever correlation they had with the Catholics. DHO is probably the most affected by this revelation. Guess it's just us and the Evangelicals now - and they don't even pretend to like us (and least the Catholics pretend to).

Tangent thought: I'm glad this happened now and not a month or two ago - we would have likely heard a different talk by DHO and perhaps some others had it come to light earlier.
“Homosexual people have the right to be in a family. They are children of God,” Francis said in one of his sit-down interviews for the film. “You can’t kick someone out of a family, nor make their life miserable for this. What we have to have is a civil union law; that way they are legally covered.”
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Re: Pope endorses same sex civil unions

Post by Roy » 21 Oct 2020, 16:00

Wow! That is a big step. I know that the catholic church is hugely influential in certain parts of the world. I believe that this will be another positive step to help break down that wall of homophobia little by little.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Broken60
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Re: Pope endorses same sex civil unions

Post by Broken60 » 22 Oct 2020, 07:00

I have to agree with you Roy . We should not judge as it says in the Bible. Those people will have to sort it out with God it is not up to us to say if its right or wrong. Its not a decision I am in favor of but again I am not God !!

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Pope endorses same sex civil unions

Post by Curt Sunshine » 21 Nov 2020, 11:12

I was ecstatic to see the announcement when it happened. I hope the LDS Church can find a way to the same conclusion. It would be an important step to me and a lot of people I know.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Heber13
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Re: Pope endorses same sex civil unions

Post by Heber13 » 22 Nov 2020, 21:26

Does this make you think the LDS church is wrong to be so slow to make these kinds of changes? Does the world figure things out before God tells his prophets?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Pope endorses same sex civil unions

Post by Curt Sunshine » 22 Nov 2020, 23:14

God, No.

Our prophets? Yes and No, depending on the issues.

"The incorrect traditions of their fathers" is not confined only to "others". It is the central reason the Restoration needs to be on-going, based on "further light and knowledge".

Ancient Israel, Jews, Christians, and Mormons never have had a monopoly on the truth - and our Articles of Faith say that quite clearly if we accept their actual words.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SamBee
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Re: Pope endorses same sex civil unions

Post by SamBee » 23 Nov 2020, 15:11

Curt Sunshine wrote:
22 Nov 2020, 23:14
Ancient Israel, Jews, Christians, and Mormons never have had a monopoly on the truth - and our Articles of Faith say that quite clearly if we accept their actual words.
Yes, that is perfectly true. It is implicit in LDS beliefs. Even Muslims who are noted for being very dogmatic, have a tradition (which I think originates with Mohammed himself) that every nation has been sent a prophet by Allah. There is a similar idea in LDS theology (I have quoted one such document below).

In RC terms and LDS especially, marriages are mainly seen as a means of producing families. In the LDS there is the whole sealing thing...

However I know at least one sect has put a very Mormon spin on the issue, not only doing same sex sealings, but also same-sex plural marriage!
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

TinSoldier
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Re: Pope endorses same sex civil unions

Post by TinSoldier » 29 Nov 2020, 15:38

Personally, as far as government goes, I don't think government should be involved in marriages at all. Marriage licenses were only popularized in the 1800s (in the U.S. at least) as a means of clamping down on inter-racial marriages. We didn't used to have to ask permission in the form of buying a marriage license, with the particular rules they expect people to follow.

As far as religion, personally I am a bit disturbed by this move by the Catholic church. I'm not homophobic, I don't have a "phobia" over the issue, I simply disagree with it. Especially since the previous pope was crystal clear about his position on prohibiting it. I do not claim to be totally objective on this whole issue. My first marriage ended because, after nearly 20 years and four kids, my ex announced one day that she never really preferred men. Within a couple of months of that announcement she was screaming at me that I had turned her into a lesbian, in spite of the fact she had recently shared about an experience she had with a woman years before we met. The last I heard, she is now married to a woman about twenty years older than herself.

So no, I stand opposed to same sex marriages. I hope the LDS church does not follow suit. Love everyone, but that does not mean we have to love their actions and choices.

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SamBee
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Re: Pope endorses same sex civil unions

Post by SamBee » 29 Nov 2020, 16:05

TinSoldier wrote:
29 Nov 2020, 15:38
Personally, as far as government goes, I don't think government should be involved in marriages at all. Marriage licenses were only popularized in the 1800s (in the U.S. at least) as a means of clamping down on inter-racial marriages. We didn't used to have to ask permission in the form of buying a marriage license, with the particular rules they expect people to follow.
That's really a US thing. I think the French were first to insist on government involvement after the Revolution, partly as a means of undermining religion.

The governments have done more to destroy stable marriage than just about anything else. Gays get the blame, in some quarters, but in reality it is the expense of getting married, and if you're a man, you're going to get the raw deal with any divorce.

I do tend to think government should butt out of marriage, except where something abusive is happening, i.e. forced marriage, incest, underage etc.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Pope endorses same sex civil unions

Post by DarkJedi » 30 Nov 2020, 08:04

I would also prefer if the government stayed out of the marriage business but it's all pretty complicated and intertwined. In the US a big part of it because marriage is tied to income taxes. I'm not sure I see the government getting out of the marriage business but I could see the church getting out of it and focusing on sealing.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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