Do you apologize?

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DarkJedi
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Re: Do you apologize?

Post by DarkJedi » 07 Oct 2020, 12:27

SilentDawning wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 09:33
My friend told me it was a hollow apology for the clearly-out-of-line call-out my friend received in the previous meeting. I don't know how people can think they can sweep the negative behavior under the rug by suddenly turning all nicey-nicey. Apologies, coupled with a change in behavior afterwards seem to carry much more weight.
I agree, the above example is not an apology or even an attempt at one in my book. The highlighted part is more in line with what I think. I get that some people have a really hard time apologizing and don't have another way to "save face" or not feel shamed but I think that is the exact definition of pride (as the opposite of humility).

In my experience I have also found that those with a great deal of authority - at least perceived authority - seem to have a harder time than others. For example, most of my military leaders would never apologize no matter how much they recognized they might be wrong because admitting they were wrong and/or apologizing to a subordinate was seen as weakness. Likewise, I have encountered church leaders (stake presidents and bishops) who think pretty much the same way or that admitting they were wrong might be a chink in their own armor because if they're wrong about something (even an interpersonal relationship) they could be wrong about something of greater weight.

I once had a boss who would lose her cool sometimes, even in a group/meeting setting. Her remedy was always cookies. "Oh, come have some cookies, it'll be all right." In fairness she did sometimes apologize personally while offering the cookies, but not usually in front of the group even if she treated that individual very badly in front of the group.

Nicey-nicey just doesn't cut it (cookies or not).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SilentDawning
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Re: Do you apologize?

Post by SilentDawning » 19 Oct 2020, 04:32

DarkJedi wrote:
07 Oct 2020, 12:27
Nicey-nicey just doesn't cut it (cookies or not).
As someone who has cut all sugar out of my diet, I'm almost to the point where I'd take the cookies over the apology :lol:

Just kidding. Nicey Nicey is too ambiguous for me. It could mean the person isn't sorry at all for what they did, but want the goodies that come out of the restoration of the relationship. That's no good in my view. The apology, coupled with right behavior (particularly behavior meant to restore trust) is where it's at. Granted, I would hope I could get past the error and work with the person to the extent possible. Often this is very possible, often it is not if the offence is grievous.

I don't have a problem with admitting that I made a mistake, even when I'm in a position of leadership. However, I have noticed there are certain personalities who "scoff" when you admit you made a mistake. For example, as a university professor demonstrating software I will sometimes make an error. I am very forgiving of myself because it's often a lot of steps to memorize. And in real life, you often make mistakes while using Excel, Access, or other pieces of software as part of the "user experience". You think nothing of it, correct the error and move on.

There is that one small percent of the student population that scoffs when this happens. I wonder if perhaps they are the ones who, if given a position of power, would hesitate to apologize given pride, ego, or fear they may lose something in their position power if they apologize.

For me, an apology from someone in power, particularly in a church position, only strengthens their position power -- provided they don't have to do it too often.

I think it's possible to apologize too much. I was tutoring someone a couple weeks ago and she would apologize after every other sentence. I think she was lacking confidence in the subject material, and this was how she expressed that lack of confidence. So, one must be judicious in the use of apologies, in my view. But I believe they are sometimes essential for restoring trust in a relationship that has sufferred due to a wrong (perceived or actual) that you may have committed.

One thing that is also hollow, for me, is when someone who is not the perpetrator of the error apologizes. I had a Bishop who apologized for a mistake LDS Social Services made a long time ago. For some reason, that apology didn't mean much to me because the Bishop isn't the one who made the error.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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DarkJedi
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Re: Do you apologize?

Post by DarkJedi » 19 Oct 2020, 04:48

SilentDawning wrote:
19 Oct 2020, 04:32
I think it's possible to apologize too much. I was tutoring someone a couple weeks ago and she would apologize after every other sentence. I think she was lacking confidence in the subject material, and this was how she expressed that lack of confidence. So, one must be judicious in the use of apologies, in my view. But I believe they are sometimes essential for restoring trust in a relationship that has sufferred due to a wrong (perceived or actual) that you may have committed.
Yes, I agree, it is possible to apologize too much and for things that don't really need an apology. That said, sometimes I recognize that it's really just a matter of semantics. I once criticized my wife when we were at a fair because she apologized to the next person for the mess at the picnic table - a mess we didn't make. What she was really trying to say was that she was sad/upset that the table was a mess, not that we're sorry we made a mess.

[quoteOne thing that is also hollow, for me, is when someone who is not the perpetrator of the error apologizes. I had a Bishop who apologized for a mistake LDS Social Services made a long time ago. For some reason, that apology didn't mean much to me because the Bishop isn't the one who made the error.
[/quote]
I have talked about this one before. A well meaning SP once apologized to me for something a bishop had done. The bishop never did. From my point of view that apology was worthless. The SP likely did actually feel bad for what happened (I believe he did) but I'm not sure the bishop did (and I believe he did not). It might as well have been you apologizing because it was meaningless - regardless of whether you felt bad or not, you didn't do anything that harmed me or my family.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SamBee
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Re: Do you apologize?

Post by SamBee » 20 Oct 2020, 05:16

There are times when we shouldn't apologise. Good judgement is knowing when that isn't appropriate.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Do you apologize?

Post by DarkJedi » 20 Oct 2020, 08:41

SamBee wrote:
20 Oct 2020, 05:16
There are times when we shouldn't apologise. Good judgement is knowing when that isn't appropriate.
Do you care to elaborate?
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SamBee
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Re: Do you apologize?

Post by SamBee » 20 Oct 2020, 11:31

DarkJedi wrote:
20 Oct 2020, 08:41
SamBee wrote:
20 Oct 2020, 05:16
There are times when we shouldn't apologise. Good judgement is knowing when that isn't appropriate.
Do you care to elaborate?
It's a controversial view nowadays, but one should never apologise for one's birth characteristics, or for other things you had no say in or choice about. You shouldn't apologise for going gray, bald or having a stammer etc.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Minyan Man
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Re: Do you apologize?

Post by Minyan Man » 20 Oct 2020, 13:05

Another one I would include is don't apologize for speaking the truth. NOTE: in the process don't speak the truth to deliberately hurt someone's
feelings. This is the example I'm thinking of.

I was married twice. My daughter is from my first marriage. My second wife & I raised my daughter from the age of 13 to 18. When my daughter
graduated High School she moved to Utah to be closer to her birth mother & go to the UofU. About the time she graduated from college, she
called us to say that she was getting married & wanted us to help finance the wedding (non LDS). We were willing to do that & celebrate with
her, the new husband & my ex. (It was not an amical divorce or change in custody.)

Just before we were going to make plans to come out west, my DD called & said that my wife (her step mother) was not invited. I told her that
her decision to exclude my wife didn't work for me. Anything that we would give her is coming from both of us. And, if she couldn't appreciate
that we couldn't come. Our relationship was cold for a number of years after that time. I worried that I made the wrong decision. As time passed,
we started to communicate again. She got a good job as a teacher, gave birth to her son, her mother died & DD got divorced herself. Life
experiences sometimes brings a deeper understanding about what's important as well as maturity. We talk long distance at least once a week.
I don't regret being truthful. (At least in this case.)

Roy
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Do you apologize?

Post by Roy » 20 Oct 2020, 13:42

DarkJedi wrote:
19 Oct 2020, 04:48
A well meaning SP once apologized to me for something a bishop had done. The bishop never did. From my point of view that apology was worthless. The SP likely did actually feel bad for what happened (I believe he did) but I'm not sure the bishop did (and I believe he did not). It might as well have been you apologizing because it was meaningless - regardless of whether you felt bad or not, you didn't do anything that harmed me or my family.
I routinely apologize in my professional capacity as a representative of the company. I did not personally cause the problem but I am in a position to begin to make amends and part of that comes from owning the problem. I wonder if some apologies from church officials can serve a similar purpose. They might apologize as a representative of the same organization that caused the problem.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Do you apologize?

Post by Roy » 20 Oct 2020, 13:51

MM, I am sorry for your experience. I have heard of several similar situations where there was hurt feelings regarding wedding plans and exclusion. I am glad that your relationship with your daughter has healed eventually. I understand you to be saying that sometimes one should stand on your principles and loyalties and not apologize for that.

I can respect that.

I also could see myself at some point apologizing to my daughter for not attending her wedding and saying that it was something that I still regret to this day. My mindset would be that healing the relationship with my daughter is worth the effort. I would only bring it up if I felt good enough about the situation to not make it worse (for example, I would need to be strong enough to not react badly if DD fails to apologize for her own part in the event etc.).
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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SamBee
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Re: Do you apologize?

Post by SamBee » 20 Oct 2020, 15:13

Telling the truth is an interesting one. I suppose I could apologise for the way I express the truth sometimes. Sometimes I'm not as diplomatic as I could be. I had to talk to someone about his deafness once, and it did not go down well. I regretted it greatly, because I never intended to hurt him. But every time we spoke, we ended up having two different conversations.

Could I have put it better? Yes I could. But it was inevitable it would come up eventually. I don't think my apologies counted for much.

There are of course other scenarios in which the truth shouldn't be told, because it's neither kind nor necessary. I would never tell a small child that Santa didn't exist because that would be hurtful.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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