Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?

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DarkJedi
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Re: Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?

Post by DarkJedi » 17 Aug 2020, 18:32

Cadence wrote:
17 Aug 2020, 15:34
DarkJedi wrote:
Cadence wrote:
17 Aug 2020, 12:00
Why would we want to worship a god who hides and lets is suffer. Makes no sense
Maybe God does expect us to worship. Maybe instead of the "sovereign God" who sees us as servants and expects worship, God really is the loving parent God LDS theology alludes to (Givens's God who weeps)? What if God can't prevent our suffering because it's part of the plan and God is limited in the ability to interact because of covenants and laws God must obey? What if God "hides" because there is no other option?
I am fine with a God who cant interact, but that is a one way street. If the theology says you must do this and that but God really cant assist or even tell you you are doing OK, that is a lopsided relationship.

I just can not keep checking the boxes with no feedback. It has worn me out.
Perhaps the theology, at least that particular aspect, is wrong. That happens to be pretty close to what I believe, you are welcome to believe differently.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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Ilovechrist77
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Re: Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?

Post by Ilovechrist77 » 25 Aug 2020, 04:53

There are many times lately I wish God would just tell us clearly everything at once that we need to know. I've heard various explanations for it, but many only make sense to a extent. Even when we have important concerns, why does it often have to be like that? For instance, pardon the language, when will this damn COVID-19 be cured or treated enough so this social distancing and wearing face masks no longer has to be done? And, if there's so much good in the world, why does the news tend to be more bad then good? I can't explain it. :wtf:

Roy
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Re: Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?

Post by Roy » 25 Aug 2020, 12:42

Ilovechrist77 wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 04:53
when will this damn COVID-19 be cured or treated enough so this social distancing and wearing face masks no longer has to be done?
I think it is relevant that when people were dying in great numbers from the plague in medieval Europe that many lost faith in the power of the church. A good number that were most vulnerable to the epidemic asked themselves, "What is the point of religion if it doesn't protect you from such a thing?"
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Minyan Man
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Re: Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?

Post by Minyan Man » 25 Aug 2020, 13:15

Roy wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 12:42
I think it is relevant that when people were dying in great numbers from the plague in medieval Europe that many lost faith in the power of the church. A good number that were most vulnerable to the epidemic asked themselves, "What is the point of religion if it doesn't protect you from such a thing?"
According to some of the religious programs on tv, it's the end of the world. Especially if Donald Trump isn't re-elected.

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Ilovechrist77
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Re: Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?

Post by Ilovechrist77 » 25 Aug 2020, 19:15

"According to some of the religious programs on tv, it's the end of the world. Especially if Donald Trump isn't re-elected." Haha. MM, please I hope the next president is anybody but him. Hahah. Although my mom isn't a fan for Trump either, she finds it hilarious all his facial expressions. I can agree with that. Hahah.

grobert93
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Re: Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?

Post by grobert93 » 29 Aug 2020, 07:01

Cadence wrote:
17 Aug 2020, 15:34
DarkJedi wrote:
Cadence wrote:
17 Aug 2020, 12:00
Why would we want to worship a god who hides and lets is suffer. Makes no sense
Maybe God does expect us to worship. Maybe instead of the "sovereign God" who sees us as servants and expects worship, God really is the loving parent God LDS theology alludes to (Givens's God who weeps)? What if God can't prevent our suffering because it's part of the plan and God is limited in the ability to interact because of covenants and laws God must obey? What if God "hides" because there is no other option?
I am fine with a God who cant interact, but that is a one way street. If the theology says you must do this and that but God really cant assist or even tell you you are doing OK, that is a lopsided relationship.

I just can not keep checking the boxes with no feedback. It has worn me out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree. I think the issue for those of us who have left isn't that God doesn't talk to us. It's that he apparently seems more concerned over using the word Mormon, the logo of the church, and trivial things relevant to the mechanics of the functions the church has. God does talk, but he talks about things that won't feed the poor and uplift the troubled. He ignores those like me who find more questions than answers until we look outside the church approved sources, then we feel betrayed and hurt and ignored by God, who continues to lead his mormon prophets by way of technicality (women can now wear pants, dress code updated, missionaries can skype weekly!) instead of addressing real history and real pain that real people still experience.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?

Post by DarkJedi » 29 Aug 2020, 10:20

grobert93 wrote:
29 Aug 2020, 07:01
I agree. I think the issue for those of us who have left isn't that God doesn't talk to us. It's that he apparently seems more concerned over using the word Mormon, the logo of the church, and trivial things relevant to the mechanics of the functions the church has. God does talk, but he talks about things that won't feed the poor and uplift the troubled. He ignores those like me who find more questions than answers until we look outside the church approved sources, then we feel betrayed and hurt and ignored by God, who continues to lead his mormon prophets by way of technicality (women can now wear pants, dress code updated, missionaries can skype weekly!) instead of addressing real history and real pain that real people still experience.
I personally don't believe any of that crap is revelation. I think our leadership does a lot more setting of policy than receiving of revelation. I recognize the current president has been prone to call these policy changes revelation but his recent predecessors were much less likely to do so. I also recognize that many members want their president to receive revelation so it's easy to peg everything as revelation even if it turns out to be a not-so-good thing (which I think is why other recent presidents were more reticent). I recently endured (to the end) a diatribe about how Come Follow Me was clearly revelation because of the COVID pandemic. I'm still not convinced - it's a happy coincidence at best.
grobert93 wrote:
29 Aug 2020, 07:01
I think the issue for those of us who have left isn't that God doesn't talk to us.
I agree God can speak to me and speaks to me no differently than to RMN or anyone else. I also believe there is a sort of underlying (complex) theology that this is necessary for each of us. Has God told you about the concern for the use of Mormon? Me either. Until/unless God does I'm not worried about it. FWIW what I believe God has told me is that it's important to be nice to one another, and little else.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Roy
Posts: 6217
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?

Post by Roy » 31 Aug 2020, 16:05

grobert93 wrote:
29 Aug 2020, 07:01
I agree. I think the issue for those of us who have left isn't that God doesn't talk to us. It's that he apparently seems more concerned over using the word Mormon, the logo of the church, and trivial things relevant to the mechanics of the functions the church has. God does talk, but he talks about things that won't feed the poor and uplift the troubled. He ignores those like me who find more questions than answers until we look outside the church approved sources, then we feel betrayed and hurt and ignored by God, who continues to lead his mormon prophets by way of technicality (women can now wear pants, dress code updated, missionaries can skype weekly!) instead of addressing real history and real pain that real people still experience.
The talk Tragedy or Destiny by SWK was pretty shocking to me because he frankly admitted to not knowing the answer for why people die at certain times. "Answer, if you can. I cannot, for though I know God has a major role in our lives, I do not know how much he causes to happen and how much he merely permits." This was a hard truth for me at the time because I thought that if the prophet had a question on an important issue such as this then he could just go ask God and get an answer. I thought at the time, "What does it mean to be prophet if you are not able to communicate with God and have God answer questions the way that JS seemed to do?"

I tend to look at those policy changes and "trivial things relevant to the mechanics" of the church through that same lens. We "do not know how much he causes to happen and how much he merely permits."
Like you, i compare the administration of the church to what I consider to be weightier matters that seem to not be getting divine attention and it leads me to conclude that the basket for things that God "permits" to happen but does not direct is quite large.

To bring it back to the question in the OP, "Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?" - God, for whatever reason, either successfully hides his involvement or does not get involved so frequently that many would question if He even exists.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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nibbler
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Re: Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?

Post by nibbler » 01 Sep 2020, 09:12

I'll share this, seeing as how my avatar is borrowed from the show.

From the show Futurama, Godfellas episode.
God Entity wrote:When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
In the episode, through a series of events a "god entity" teaches one of the show's characters that god cannot be relied upon. Later in the episode a problem arises. Ordinarily the character would have ignored the problem but since the character learned that god cannot be relied upon they decide to take matters into their own hands and help out.

By doing nothing, the "god entity" inspired someone else to start doing something. There was also some ambiguity, implying that the "god entity" had lined up the dominoes to teach the lesson without the recipient of the lesson being aware.
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

grobert93
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Joined: 30 Nov 2015, 16:05

Re: Wouldn't it be easier just to tell us?

Post by grobert93 » 06 Sep 2020, 07:22

I like all three responses to my question and the OP question.

But if God is hiding in the shadows quietly getting work done and allowing us to give ourselves credit, then I will cycle once again to the merits of the truth claims from the mormon church. What makes the mormons right or more correct from any other church that teaches about God and that god COULD use in a similar fashion? Is it really this priesthood thing where somehow because we have the "right" power, that makes our efforts more valid?

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