April 2020 General Conference

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DarkJedi
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Re: April 2020 General Conference

Post by DarkJedi » 09 Apr 2020, 05:52

nibbler wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 15:12
I was waiting for the transcript. I was curious as to what people thought about something DFU said during conference.
DFU wrote:As we incline our hearts to our Heavenly Father and draw near to Him, we will feel Him draw near to us.

We are His beloved children.

Even those who reject Him.

Even those who, like a headstrong, unruly child, become angry with God and His Church, pack their bags, and storm out the door proclaiming that they’re running away and never coming back.

When a child runs away from home, he or she may not notice the concerned parents looking out the window. With tender hearts, they watch their son or daughter go—hoping their precious child will learn something from this heartrending experience and perhaps see life with new eyes—and eventually return home.

So it is with our loving Heavenly Father. He is waiting for our return.

Your Savior, tears of love and compassion in His eyes, awaits your return. Even when you feel far away from God, He will see you; He will have compassion for you and run to embrace you.

Come and belong.
I'm not sure how I feel about the "draw near unto me, and I will draw near unto you" Jesus. I think I prefer the Jesus that's been there the whole time and maybe it's more an issue of noticing Jesus.

I feel a little icky defending this in any way, but parsing it DFU is probably saying there are some that are like a headstrong, unruly child that become angry with church... not that all people that are angry with church are like a headstrong, unruly child. That said, I think in this case it's going to be more about how the message is received.

It's still a pretty unfair analogy no matter which way you slice it. Many people that leave home (church) feel like they were run out the door. Some even have been run out the door. There are no parents anxiously awaiting their return, there's a guard at the door making sure they can't get back in.

It's tough because I've often felt like there's no place for me so I might as well leave. When I'm invited back, it doesn't feel like I'm being invited back, I feel like some orthodox robot version of me is being invited back.

But DFU probably isn't referring to those types? Maybe he's only referring to people angry at the church. Even then I think the path forward is validation. Maybe even ask Lord, is it I, am I the headstrong, unruly child in this situation?
No question I have a bias in favor of Elder Uchtdorf. I don't agree with everything he says but I agree with him more than most. I took these comments in the context of one of my favorite passages of scripture, the parable of the prodigal son. I believe our Heavenly Parents (and our Savior) are waiting and watching for our return even though that return may not be until after this life. I agree that I don't always (or even usually) feel the Savior is close by nor do I often feel the Spirit, and I despise the "footprints" poem because I don't believe it's true/correct. But I don't think that means they are not waiting for us to turn/return (repent) to them and I believe they are willing to meet us while "yet a great way off."
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

grobert93
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Joined: 30 Nov 2015, 16:05

Re: April 2020 General Conference

Post by grobert93 » 09 Apr 2020, 06:22

DarkJedi wrote:
09 Apr 2020, 05:52
nibbler wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 15:12
I was waiting for the transcript. I was curious as to what people thought about something DFU said during conference.
DFU wrote:As we incline our hearts to our Heavenly Father and draw near to Him, we will feel Him draw near to us.

We are His beloved children.

Even those who reject Him.

Even those who, like a headstrong, unruly child, become angry with God and His Church, pack their bags, and storm out the door proclaiming that they’re running away and never coming back.

When a child runs away from home, he or she may not notice the concerned parents looking out the window. With tender hearts, they watch their son or daughter go—hoping their precious child will learn something from this heartrending experience and perhaps see life with new eyes—and eventually return home.

So it is with our loving Heavenly Father. He is waiting for our return.

Your Savior, tears of love and compassion in His eyes, awaits your return. Even when you feel far away from God, He will see you; He will have compassion for you and run to embrace you.

Come and belong.
I'm not sure how I feel about the "draw near unto me, and I will draw near unto you" Jesus. I think I prefer the Jesus that's been there the whole time and maybe it's more an issue of noticing Jesus.

I feel a little icky defending this in any way, but parsing it DFU is probably saying there are some that are like a headstrong, unruly child that become angry with church... not that all people that are angry with church are like a headstrong, unruly child. That said, I think in this case it's going to be more about how the message is received.

It's still a pretty unfair analogy no matter which way you slice it. Many people that leave home (church) feel like they were run out the door. Some even have been run out the door. There are no parents anxiously awaiting their return, there's a guard at the door making sure they can't get back in.

It's tough because I've often felt like there's no place for me so I might as well leave. When I'm invited back, it doesn't feel like I'm being invited back, I feel like some orthodox robot version of me is being invited back.

But DFU probably isn't referring to those types? Maybe he's only referring to people angry at the church. Even then I think the path forward is validation. Maybe even ask Lord, is it I, am I the headstrong, unruly child in this situation?
No question I have a bias in favor of Elder Uchtdorf. I don't agree with everything he says but I agree with him more than most. I took these comments in the context of one of my favorite passages of scripture, the parable of the prodigal son. I believe our Heavenly Parents (and our Savior) are waiting and watching for our return even though that return may not be until after this life. I agree that I don't always (or even usually) feel the Savior is close by nor do I often feel the Spirit, and I despise the "footprints" poem because I don't believe it's true/correct. But I don't think that means they are not waiting for us to turn/return (repent) to them and I believe they are willing to meet us while "yet a great way off."
What makes this still dangerous is the context. It creates the false idea that you can only be happy / a good person if you stay in the church. And that if you chose to leave due to so many various reasons, it's your fault and you're problem. The "open arms waiting for me to return" idea doesn't work because often than not I have chosen to leave because I was told to, asked why I'm even staying or told that I don't belong. In either case, playing the victim isn't going to help. I noticed on some post mormon social media sites a lot of #unrulychildren hashtags are being used in peoples photos. Happy people, people who left the church after being denied support, people who were told it was their fault they got raped, people who didn't understand why the church focused so much NOT on Jesus Christ, etc. These people are happy. The same people the church is trying to teach has gone astray.

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nibbler
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Re: April 2020 General Conference

Post by nibbler » 09 Apr 2020, 07:36

I don't think DFU is talking everyone that leaves the church, he only refers to "those" that become angry, which I interpret as being some subset.

Still, it's hard to parse. Sort of like how people's takeaway from the "Come, Join With Us" talk was "doubt your doubts", it may be less the intended message and more about how the message is received.

He specifically mentions the church, which is interesting. Often when leaders talk about people leaving they're talking about the church but they use proxies like "leave the gospel".

If you really, really want to drill down into the analogy, perhaps parsing more than the author's intent...

Parents = HF and HM
Home = being with/having faith in HF and HM

At the end of the analogy DFU says HF is waiting for our return but there is no specific mention that returning home means returning to church. Maybe we're reading that into the analogy. It's hard not to, given how people often use god and church interchangeably.
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

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mom3
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Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: April 2020 General Conference

Post by mom3 » 09 Apr 2020, 10:35

Uchtdorf also has to hold up the bridge all by himself. I am going to give him a pass on this. He's had missionaries, Covid, and a personal life (we know nothing about it). Perhaps I am jaded because I like him. But I feel like he has genuinely tried to be open, even keel, considerate, and hopeful for everyone. If his trend changes, I will reexamine. For now, though he can have a one off.

One of the biggest keys I have come to in the past decade is, my version of life is mine. I used to live for support. Now if it happens, it happens. If not, I am an equal child of God or whomever, and I will go my way in peace. Who knows maybe someday someone will see it my way.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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bridget_night
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Joined: 02 Mar 2009, 12:15

Re: April 2020 General Conference

Post by bridget_night » 09 Apr 2020, 13:16

Regarding the Uchtdorf talk on unruly children hurting their parents and leaving the church....I remember the lds church leaders praising my Catholic young adult friends when they left the Catholic church and deeply hurt their parents. They were called courageous and truth seekers. I certainly did not want to hurt my parents when I questioned the lds faith. My kids left the lds church long before I did and it did sadden me but I soon saw how what they choose was good for them and their children at that time. I just felt this conference and the new proclamation and hallelujah shout was more about reinforcing that the gospel was true no matter what facts to the contrary. In other words, ignore the man behind the curtain and obey. I was brought up to believe: "If we have truth, [it] cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed." J. Reuben Clark...and many others said to not accept what the leaders say blindly.

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DarkJedi
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Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: April 2020 General Conference

Post by DarkJedi » 10 Apr 2020, 03:59

Again, I do have a bias in favor of DFU and I will be an apologetic (defender) for him in this case. I agree many (most?) members tend to conflate the gospel and the church and one of my own major faith rebuilding epiphanies was separation of the gospel and the church - it was the most important thing that happened (other than regaining a belief in God). I also believe most (all?) GAs tend to conflate the church and the gospel and in the context of DFU's talk ("come and see....come and stay") he was clearly talking about the church. He is the head missionary, after all, and there was to be an Easter initiative underway (coronavirus is therefore clearly of the devil :twisted: ). I related very much to the particular quoted section of the talk. I spent several years being angry at God and did not realize how misplaced that anger was until after coming here - it was not God or the church I should have been angry with, it was really me I was angry with (for believing what others said about God and then setting unreal expectations). I have repented (changed). In that context, of course I often here people in my own Sunday meetings conflate the church and the gospel. But in my mind, they are still two separate things. When this happens (and when I'm paying attention) I decide which is the individual really talking about - is it the church or the gospel? In the case of DFU, I believe he was really talking about the gospel. Back to the parable of the prodigal son, the reason I like that passage of scripture so much is that I believe it contains the crux of the gospel - the rebellious child separated from his parents who repents (changes) while meanwhile his father waited and watched, met him while yet a great way off, immediately forgave him, and welcomed him home. I believe that's how it really works - we're all the prodigal son (and some of us are the other son too). I think that's what DFU was trying to say.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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