Are relationships really capable of lasting forever?

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mom3
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Re: Are relationships really capable of lasting forever?

Post by mom3 » 24 Jun 2019, 20:24

Assigned relationship building has its limits. The fact that most of the HT relationships stop after reassignments are made is evidence of this.
And yet there are families and individuals who have found lasting friendships with people through the program. Is it a high margin? No. But it has put unlikely people together who have been changed for the relationship. My grandfather is one of them. One of the reason it worked was because the Ward Teacher cared enough to remove the trappings of the calling, and chose to build a lifetime friendship, with no strings attached. It would cover 40 years, until Grandpa died.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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Heber13
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Re: Are relationships really capable of lasting forever?

Post by Heber13 » 24 Jun 2019, 22:00

Anything that you cultivate and nourish and put effort to can grow in your heart, if you want it. With love, things grow. With lack of love or apathy they can fade away. It's an interesting thing, relationships with things and other beings. Love is the key.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Roy
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Re: Are relationships really capable of lasting forever?

Post by Roy » 25 Jun 2019, 09:18

Red blood cells live for about four months, while white blood cells live on average more than a year. Skin cells live about two or three weeks. Colon cells have it rough: They die off after about four days. Sperm cells have a life span of only about three days, while brain cells typically last an entire lifetime (neurons in the cerebral cortex, for example, are not replaced when they die).
Human cells form, fulfill a purpose for a time, and then die off and are replaced. What makes relationships (or individual human lives) more important in a cosmic sense than these cells?

On the other hand, I choose to believe and teach that some relationships transcend the death of all parties involved. That gives me peace and helps me to fulfill my purpose ... until I die off and am replaced by someone else. ;)
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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SilentDawning
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Re: Are relationships really capable of lasting forever?

Post by SilentDawning » 25 Jun 2019, 14:18

Roy wrote:
25 Jun 2019, 09:18
Red blood cells live for about four months, while white blood cells live on average more than a year. Skin cells live about two or three weeks. Colon cells have it rough: They die off after about four days. Sperm cells have a life span of only about three days, while brain cells typically last an entire lifetime (neurons in the cerebral cortex, for example, are not replaced when they die).
Human cells form, fulfill a purpose for a time, and then die off and are replaced. What makes relationships (or individual human lives) more important in a cosmic sense than these cells?

On the other hand, I choose to believe and teach that some relationships transcend the death of all parties involved. That gives me peace and helps me to fulfill my purpose ... until I die off and am replaced by someone else. ;)
So, if we have a lot of fulfilling relationships during their "useful period", as well as some good long term ones, but find all relationships, except maybe a few family relationships eventually atrophy, we don't have to blame ourselves; it's the natural part of birth and death and rebirth of new relationships, -- that is my conclusion.

I think it means, given our dependence on relationships for health and wellness, that we need to NOT give up on people or relationships -- but to invest in new relationships to replace the ones that deteriorate, and enjoy them while they last. Keep investing in those relationships that you want for the long-term.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Are relationships really capable of lasting forever?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 26 Jun 2019, 13:16

I think it depends on what we mean by "relationship." If it means the person is active in your life on a regular basis, then I do think these run their course over time. If it means that we have a pool of mutual well-wishers with whom we occasionally connect, to me that's more sustainable. My best childhood friend lives across the country from me. We stay in touch through FB, rare emails, and so on, but contact can be spaced over a year apart at times. In the 30 years since we haven't lived in the same state, I've only been back there one time, but we spent every day together when I was there. She is more like a sister than a friend in some ways. There's a tie there that doesn't require presence or even ongoing contact to maintain. But if she needed me, I'd find a way to be there.

Most "friends" though have a selfish component that can't be separated out. We are friends with people like bosses, clients and employees partly because of mutual benefit and partly if we like each other. Even colleagues who are equal can have a benefits component (allies, support for our projects or goals, shared work product) that can make the relationship important at the time but then goes away. We each want to feel important and special, but sometimes, without the weight of those obligations and benefits, we simply . . . aren't that important or special to that person.

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SilentDawning
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Re: Are relationships really capable of lasting forever?

Post by SilentDawning » 27 Jun 2019, 09:09

hawkgrrrl wrote:
26 Jun 2019, 13:16
I think it depends on what we mean by "relationship." If it means the person is active in your life on a regular basis, then I do think these run their course over time.
Strong apparent wisdom...above
hawkgrrl wrote: Most "friends" though have a selfish component that can't be separated out. We are friends with people like bosses, clients and employees partly because of mutual benefit and partly if we like each other. Even colleagues who are equal can have a benefits component (allies, support for our projects or goals, shared work product) that can make the relationship important at the time but then goes away. We each want to feel important and special, but sometimes, without the weight of those obligations and benefits, we simply . . . aren't that important or special to that person.
More wisdom. I think I've learned that again, I expect too much from myself in terms of keeping relationships going for the long term. They truly are for the short-term or medium term. Long term relationships are hit and run connections, in most cases. People are lucky to have one good friend who is like a family member.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Minyan Man
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Re: Are relationships really capable of lasting forever?

Post by Minyan Man » 27 Jun 2019, 09:30

SD, I would be curious to know do you have any close friends that has
stood the test of time
It is hard to believe that all have diminished. Assuming you do have close friendships, why do they remain close?

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SilentDawning
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Re: Are relationships really capable of lasting forever?

Post by SilentDawning » 27 Jun 2019, 13:55

Minyan Man wrote:
27 Jun 2019, 09:30
SD, I would be curious to know do you have any close friends that have
stood the test of time
It is hard to believe that all have diminished. Assuming you do have close friendships, why do they remain close?
I usually have about two close friends - very close where we share all, and talk regularly. This can be anywhere from weekly to ever couple months. At times I've had 3 of them.

Lately, I lost two of them. One just changed -- she was a community service partner who used to introduce me as her mentor. She went on to lead the organization after I left it, and we partnered on a lot of successful and a couple not-so-successful large scale events. Once she even asked me to join her and her young son on what seemed to much like a date/family outing (fireworks) and I had to say "no". I won't go into her most recent list of abuses, but I'm not impressed and have ended that one. She crossed too many lines too many times over a period of 8 years, to the point forgiveness wasn't enough to restore trust. And my long-term relationships are based on trust, not forgiveness. I think she outgrew my knowledge and doesn't need me anymore. There is a bit of arrogance and egocentrism about her needs in there -- she no longer needs me and it shows in her attitudes.

The other -- he's a former LDS Bishop. We got married in the same month. We were close friends for 26 years and served in the same Ward for a long time. As I grew more and more unorthodox, he got less and less tolerant with me. In recent years I've found him more and more distant. I visited him, and I think it's partly age, but I think the relationship is done. We talked every month or so for 26 years, often for hours. In March he was toying coming to see me and then gave an obscure reason about why he couldn't come; I found he went to Cuba after his son picked up the phone. Once we did a joint trip, and he didn't pay his fair share at the end. I let it go....but recent peeing in the pool has made the relationship untenable in other ways. Sad after 26 years.

I still have one colleague at work who is a close friend. We are both immigrants, both work at the same place, exercise together now and then, and tend to share all. We talk weekly. It's my last close relationship. We have been pretty close friends for 10 years. that may die as much of our conversation centers on our word; if we take different jobs that could kill it. See @hawkgrrl's post above.

After that's gone, it'll be my wife and that's it.

I'm not that close to my kids anymore -- one because I'm not active in the church and she seems to grow tired of me and needs regular, long, extended breaks, and the other is a teenager who barely talks.

The close relationships remain close, according to the people I've had such relationships with, because of the quality of my ideas. Apparently, they get a lot out of talking to me -- how to handle situations, philosophy, research, and in the case of the community service person above, all the resources and know-how I would give her. I hope I don't sound like I'm bragging, but they all have told me at different times they find my conversation stimulating and intelligent. I also believe my tendency to reach out and keep the relationhips alive, and to initiate experiences together also helped. Throughout their terms of these relationships, iff I dropped the outreach, then the relationships in the first two cases would surely have died. They tend to last because I keep investing in them.

Hope that answers your questions....I appreciate you asking me.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Are relationships really capable of lasting forever?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 27 Jun 2019, 14:23

It varies radically from person to person.

I have relatively few truly close friends outside of Internet associations. That just is how it is for me. My wife, on the other hand, has many close friends - and a large number have remained friends for years. That just is how it is for her. We both are friendly people, but she is more open than I am emotionally. It makes a difference.

My modern life comment deals with the ability to be mobile - and to make numerous casual acquaintances and reasonably good friends online. Modern life makes it possible to maintain friendships and associations, but it also tends to move people around more than in the past. Neighborhoods aren't as tight as they once were, and neither are extended families. Truly tight friendships can be divided, as well.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Are relationships really capable of lasting forever?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 27 Jun 2019, 14:24

Let me put it this way:

Some people crave the "bonds" of friendship; other people don't.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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