11-Year-Old Deacons and Beehives

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SilentDawning
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Re: 11-Year-Old Deacons and Beehives

Post by SilentDawning » 15 Dec 2018, 04:58

I think this is good. Maybe it will reduce the number of massively teenager looking youth standing up there in the primary presentation looking like a fish out of water next to all the young primary kids.
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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: 11-Year-Old Deacons and Beehives

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 15 Dec 2018, 10:11

Personally I'm glad to see that President Nelson is apparently not afraid to change things around left and right. But it does beg the question that if some of these changes were such a great idea then why did it take so long for them to be made especially when the Church literally claims to be led by living prophets, seers, and revelators? I mean why is it that I had to wait until I was exactly 12 years old to receive the priesthood if it would have been alright for 11 year olds to receive the priesthood all along?

If I was still a TBM, then seeing all of these changes after no significant changes other than the missionary age change as long as I can remember just as soon as Nelson became Church President would definitely have obliterated my shelf fairly quickly and I doubt I'm the only one that thinks this way. Sure there are plenty of faithful members that will say how great some of these changes are but I suspect that there are also many quietly thinking, "This doesn't really make sense" regardless of whether the individual changes are perceived as good or bad simply due to the overall implications for the fundamental LDS teachings about how prophets and revelation are supposed to work in theory. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out over the long run.
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Re: 11-Year-Old Deacons and Beehives

Post by Curt Sunshine » 15 Dec 2018, 10:20

"If I were still a TBM" you would be rejoicing at the outpouring of revelatory change. That kind of is the definition of term. :D :P ;)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: 11-Year-Old Deacons and Beehives

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 15 Dec 2018, 10:58

Curt Sunshine wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 10:20
"If I were still a TBM" you would be rejoicing at the outpouring of revelatory change. That kind of is the definition of term.
Maybe for one or two changes if I happened to like those changes, but not one after another like this including some that seem rather petty and/or pointless. For example, I could rationalize the Church abandoning polygamy (in this life) and the racial priesthood ban (both changes that were clearly for the better in my opinion) without too much effort with excuses like maybe too many of the early saints simply weren't ready to accept blacks as Church leaders and God understood this so that's why he didn't ask them to until enough of them were ready to accept this change. But I definitely wondered why God would allow these to continue for so long only to end up changing anyway later and then when I found or heard about more and more contradictions or things like Gordon B. Hinckley acting like it was so important for women to only wear one pair of "modest" earrings eventually my breaking point was reached.

That's why I like the shelf metaphor, basically it seems like most believing members can shrug off or rationalize a few things that don't really make sense (e.g. it is added to the shelf) but for many of them after more and more things add weight to their shelf eventually it can't hold up anymore unless they are a super hardcore apologist. To me the definition of TBM is simply Church members that actually believe in the restoration and prophet/revelation claims to the point that they feel an obligation to go along with what they are told to by the Church or at least feel somewhat guilty if they don't; it doesn't mean they have to really like all of it that much. My point is that all these changes, good or bad, could be viewed as a contradiction between what the Church teaches about revelation and prophets and what we actually see happening over and over again in real life and thereby add more weight to or even break the "shelf" for many current faithful members.
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate on 15 Dec 2018, 11:06, edited 1 time in total.
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DarkJedi
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Re: 11-Year-Old Deacons and Beehives

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Dec 2018, 11:05

Idon't know DA. My TBM friends and associates (as well as those I try to avoid) seem to mostly be on board with everything that's happening, maybe if only because of "follow the prophet."
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: 11-Year-Old Deacons and Beehives

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 15 Dec 2018, 11:16

DarkJedi wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 11:05
Idon't know DA. My TBM friends and associates (as well as those I try to avoid) seem to mostly be on board with everything that's happening, maybe if only because of "follow the prophet."
Sure, it seems like there will always be some TBMs like that that will typically follow the prophet no matter what. I'm not saying that all or even most TBMs will lose their testimony over all the changes Nelson is making, only that I have no doubt that some of these changes have added weight to the shelf for many TBMs and I suspect it will be the final straw for at least some of them that probably would have been able to continue believing under another Church President more like Monson or Hinckley.
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dande48
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Re: 11-Year-Old Deacons and Beehives

Post by dande48 » 15 Dec 2018, 11:55

DevilsAdvocate wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 10:11
I mean why is it that I had to wait until I was exactly 12 years old to receive the priesthood if it would have been alright for 11 year olds to receive the priesthood all along?
To quote Nelson in conjunction with this revelation:
"Our youth and children are among the best the Lord has ever sent into this world. They have the capacity to be smarter and wiser and have more impact on the world than any previous generation!"
In other words, this generation of children are so special and chosen, they don't have to wait until they are exactly 12 years old. It was a revelation that the older generations wait until they're 12. But these children are even more "elect".

The policy is fine. It makes sense, but really isn't that big of a deal. The announcement, reasons behind it, etc feel manipulative and rub me the wrong way. Again, it's a practical change that's being used to increase faith and commitment in the Church, by reframing it spiritually and calling them special. Did I expect any less or different from the Church? Of course not. Do the stated reasons cause more harm than good? I think so.

I think my entire view of the Church can be summed up like this: A lot of great ideas, wrapped up in terrible packaging. Like, the hard-plastic packaging, which is impossible to open without scissors, and then will have razor sharp edges, and have a good chance of breaking whatever's inside trying to open it.
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Reflexzero
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Re: 11-year old Deacons and Beehives

Post by Reflexzero » 15 Dec 2018, 13:45

dande48 wrote:
14 Dec 2018, 11:43


On a semi-related note, I wonder what it would take to change the D&C revelation that kids be baptized at age 8. If I were in charge, I'd bump up the age of accountability to 16.

I’d like to see baptismal age bumped to age of majority, to make all equal in the eyes of the church.

To quote Elder Christofferson on the Exclusion Policy.
And so with the other ordinances on through baptism and so on, there's time for that if, when a child reaches majority, he or she feels like that's what they want and they can make an informed and conscious decision about that. Nothing is lost to them in the end if that's the direction they want to go.

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Re: 11-Year-Old Deacons and Beehives

Post by Curt Sunshine » 15 Dec 2018, 13:52

"If I was a TBM, I wouldn't think or react like a TBM."

DId I get it right this time? :lol: :thumbup: :twisted:
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: 11-Year-Old Deacons and Beehives

Post by Curt Sunshine » 15 Dec 2018, 13:53

Reflexzero, that is exactly the central issue I have with the exclusion policy.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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