Supposed Blizzard of Changes coming at General Conference

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Heber13
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Re: Supposed Blizzard of Changes coming at General Conference

Post by Heber13 » 03 Oct 2018, 18:49

Good point, DT.

I think organized religion is constructed to keep people in stage 3.

Stage 4 goes against organized religions.

Stage 5 is the individual choosing to work in conjunction with organized religion and others in it. But is not beholden to it.

The organized religion cannot have power over them anymore after stage 3. And so it preaches to keep people in the boat. It is safe, that way. But some can't stay in that space, and so journey on in their own way.

Organized religion is important for groups of people to accomplish things and to learn and support.

It just isn't enough for some.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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dande48
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Re: Supposed Blizzard of Changes coming at General Conference

Post by dande48 » 03 Oct 2018, 19:09

Heber13 wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 16:03
Dande...what are you looking for? Others?
What I am looking for, is a place where everyone is working to become better people. Where there is more of a focus on doing good and becoming better, than on supernatual claims and heavenly mandates. "By their fruits." I want to walk away inspired to do good and be better, to be more grateful, more humble, more in awe at the universe. I want to learn to live and die well.

Too often, I feel like I walk away from Church, feeling like we've talked up how superior we are for holding metaphysical truths which, frankly, have very little real application. Take away the mysticism, the war talk, the claims of theological superiority, allow us to critically analyze our own beliefs without fear of punishment... Frankly, what should matter is not so much all these "truth" claims the Church makes, but how effective it is in helping us change our lives for the better. And if there are more effective teachings and doctrines out there, we should praise them and embrace them into our religion.
Last edited by dande48 on 04 Oct 2018, 06:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Supposed Blizzard of Changes coming at General Conference

Post by Curt Sunshine » 03 Oct 2018, 21:12

[Admin Note]: This has been stated already, but we have a rule against personal insults of individual leaders. I need to reiterate that such insults are not acceptable and will be deleted.

Negative reactions are fine; personal insults are not. That includes conjectures about nefarious motives or charges of general ignorance. Believing the leadership doesn't understand something fully is one thing. Calling someone ignorant or clueless or implying that strongly is entirely different.

We don't do personal insults here. It is not in harmony with the constructive spirit we strive to maintain here.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: Supposed Blizzard of Changes coming at General Conference

Post by DarkJedi » 04 Oct 2018, 05:39

DevilsAdvocate wrote:
02 Oct 2018, 07:49

An example of how Nelson has done things so far is the announcement of a temple in Russia. The Church didn't actually have official plans to build a temple in Russia. The government in Russia has already cracked down on the LDS Church to some extent and even more so against the Jehovah's Witnesses so it hardly seems like a very stable environment to promise a temple. What happens if there still isn't any temple there 20 years from now?
I have nothing against the JWs and think that like Mormons they are mostly good people trying to do what they think is right. However, in Russia they directly opposed government control over them and continued to openly preach and proselyte. The LDS church went to great lengths to comply with the government orders. Hence the JWs were further sanctioned and the LDS has not been.

I did recently read an article about RMN's use of the word revelation more than his predecessors. https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/10 ... -why-this/
If he thinks things are revelation, cool. Maybe it is - one of my criticisms of recent prophets is that they don't seem to get revelation and there is no "Thus saieth the Lord" coming out of Salt Lake. So, as far as the temple goes, maybe he did feel inspired about a temple in Russia. I'm sure that there are people who believe the locations of all temples is inspired or revealed. So what happens if there isn't any temple there in 20 years? Let's ask the people in Harrison/White Plains, NY. GBH announced that temple in Oct. 1995, and it along with the Boston Temple replaced a previous announcement of a temple in Hartford, CT. The church owns the land in Harrison, went through the zoning hearing and court proceedings (and eventually won) and was ready to build. The lot, still owned by the church, is still empty today and no work has been done. The temple no longer appears on the list of announced temples. Interestingly, another temple announcement was made for Hartford, CT in 2010 and that one was actually built (as was the Boston Temple and one in Manhattan after the White Plains announcement). So, there is some precedence for announced temples never actually being built.

FWIW, I'm not expecting much change this GC. We had a lot last time, and I agree that some of those changes have been hard to digest, especially for the "old guard." I can still hope, as I have been for the last several conferences, that we shorten the two hour block though.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Re: Supposed Blizzard of Changes coming at General Conference

Post by Shell » 04 Oct 2018, 06:41

nibbler wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 13:59
Is it the church in particular that couldn't change to meet your/our needs or is it more of that organized/formalized religion in general fails to meet your/our needs?
For me, I think that it's far more in the camp of all organized religion. I agree with Heber when he said that most religious institutions operate to keep people from getting to stage 4/5. I grew up in many other Christian churches and with that, I can see why someone would say it is this church in particular. Granted, I was a kid but from what I remember the other churches I attended had far less rules. Sure, there was still fire and brimstone at times, but far less often as I recall. The authoritativeness of our church, in particular, chaps me a bit. But I can see it in all organized religions. They all have to claim some level of authority to keep people in the pews. I've only ever been to 1 church that didn't do that. It's the church my sister and her family attend. It's, purely, about Christ and learning to love one another. The lady preacher is just wonderful.
With all that said, I still think that organized religion plays a very pivotal role in the lives of many. I see the insta-community that is immediately found and the friendships that are made. I told my wife the other day, "if it were me, I could do without going to church." And I meant any church. I feel closest to God when I am fly fishing or duck hunting. The Sundays I will cherish most will definitely be the ones where I opt to take my family to do one of those. It's how I was raised. It's what my pop and I did. and it's something that marked my soul from day one.
Heber13 wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 18:49
Organized religion is important for groups of people to accomplish things and to learn and support.
This is spot on. Open invitation, I invite you to read "Sapiens" if you have not already. It talks a lot about how man has evolved over time, or at least what the leading theories are as to how man became what he is today. In it he talks about why Homo Sapiens became so dominant. In reality, we are middle-of-the-pack on the food chain. What made us dominant is that we can form massive communities, which is something no other species has accomplished. We did that through our ability to imagine things. One of the greatest "imaginings" he talks about it religion. It's a fascinating read, but definitely not for everyone.
dande48 wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 19:09
What I am looking for, is a place where everyone is working to become better people.
Couldn't agree more about this. And your comment in general. I'm sure there are those that become better people because of what they learn at church. I tend to believe, for the most part, that I cannot say that about myself. Sure, I hear some sprinklings at times, but I hear way too much fire and brimstone to make me see the better aspects of the day spent there. I have times where I will sit through all 3 hours and not hear "Christ" uttered once outside of prayers. Its far more about how great so-and-so was, how much persecution we get, and how others need to see everything the church says literally or they are damned. Again, It chaps me.

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Re: Supposed Blizzard of Changes coming at General Conference

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 04 Oct 2018, 07:35

Heber13 wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 11:48
[Also...just as an admin note...for the etiquette on the board...should there be changes we like or don't like, or not enough changes...let's keep comments constructive to our thoughts and how we process them, and not personal attacks to President Nelson directly, lest we lose a level of respect even unintentionally, just as we might respect the Dalai Lama or Pope or any other figure deserving respect.
Curt Sunshine wrote:
03 Oct 2018, 21:12
[Admin Note]: This has been stated already, but we have a rule against personal insults of individual leaders. I need to reiterate that such insults are not acceptable and will be deleted.

Negative reactions are fine; personal insults are not. That includes conjectures about nefarious motives or charges of general ignorance. Believing the leadership doesn't understand something fully is one thing. Calling someone ignorant or clueless or implying that strongly is entirely different...We don't do personal insults here. It is not in harmony with the constructive spirit we strive to maintain here.
I'm sorry if some of my comments didn't sound very respectful toward President Nelson; I'm mostly just interested in the contrast in style between Nelson so far and what we saw with Hinckley and Monson where before I don't remember any major changes up until they lowered the missionary age limits but now all of a sudden we have seen these rapid-fire changes in such a short amount of time. And I don't even think all of these changes were a bad idea, time will tell for many of them but personally I thought it made sense to combine the high priests and Elders quorums especially if there are wards with hardly any active elders left.

I also give him credit for at least trying to fix some of what was wrong with home/visiting teaching for so long. And I can at least understand why they would drop the association with scouts even though I liked scouts. But overall what stands out to me is that it just seems like Nelson is much more willing to pull the trigger and do it fairly quickly with decisions like this and making bold statements publicly than Monson and Hinckley were and I doubt some of the previous leaders even seriously considered the possibility of making changes like this.

So that's why when I hear rumors that last conference was like a snow-flake in a snowstorm and you better buckle up and have a strong testimony going into conference I am not as quick to dismiss it as others have been; I'm actually sitting here thinking, "What will he come up with next?" largely based on what we have already seen so far. And it isn't just that Nelson is the Church President now, I think the Church is now under more pressure than before with the number of active members leaving or saying no to callings, missionaries coming home early, etc. So I'm more interested to see what is said in conference than ever before and if it turns out to be more of the same then that is already what I am used to seeing as long as I can remember anyway.
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate on 04 Oct 2018, 08:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Supposed Blizzard of Changes coming at General Conference

Post by DarkJedi » 04 Oct 2018, 08:13

I think earlier it was mentioned that perhaps some changes might have to do with missionaries. I think what I'm about to say applies only to the North America Northeast Area, but I don't think based on what's happening here we're going to see any relaxing of missionary rules and may actually see just the opposite. The things happening here to our missionaries, and our SP indicated this is area wide, include more rules and stricter enforcement of white handbook rules already in place (for example, our elders are no longer allowed to leave their area - even on p-day). I would expect that since the Area Presidency are all GA Seventies they would be privy to information about loosening rules in a time when they seem to be buckling down on strict obedience.

Just as a side note, I missed the April change to reinstitute area presidencies in North America. For the last several years only areas outside the US and Canada had area presidencies and we were overseen by the Presidency of the Seventy.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Re: Supposed Blizzard of Changes coming at General Conference

Post by nibbler » 04 Oct 2018, 08:51

Yeah... I'm not sure "more onerous" is the direction missions should be going.
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
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Re: Supposed Blizzard of Changes coming at General Conference

Post by Minyan Man » 04 Oct 2018, 10:15

There must be something to this topic. A friend came over yesterday & made the same statement that big changes are
coming. Maybe it is just a ploy to get more members to watch GC.

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Re: Supposed Blizzard of Changes coming at General Conference

Post by DarkJedi » 04 Oct 2018, 10:20

nibbler wrote:
04 Oct 2018, 08:51
Yeah... I'm not sure "more onerous" is the direction missions should be going.
Agreed. That's why I think it's funny when people in my ward talk about pushing ("sharing") For the Strength of the Youth on others. The last thing youth want is more rules. One set of earrings? Give me a break.

So the not leaving their area (except for church and district/zone meetings) is just one example. That one is strictly enforced, and includes not doing service hours/projects outside their area and not going to dinner at homes of members outside their area but in their ward (when the ward has more than one set of missionaries). Dinner appointments have to be at 5 unless they have an investigator, otherwise they have to be out proselyting 6-9. They can't drive their car on p-day, fortunately for our elders the supermarket is only about 1.5 miles from their apartment (they are allowed to get rides with members to the store but only on p-day). They were once specifically authorized to use church computers for emailing home but can no longer do so and have to use their phones. There are no chairs in their apartments, if they had chairs they have to get rid of them except they are allowed 2 camp style folding chairs. They are allowed to watch GC at a member's home or at the church, but between sessions they have to go out and proselyte. They are also further restricted in hanging out in groups, but since they can't leave their areas they mostly can't be in groups anyway (even between sessions of Conference apparently). There's lots more where they came from, and we members are not to openly express our disagreement with any of the rules, especially in front of the missionaries, but if we have concerns we can talk to our bishops.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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