Joseph Smith makes me angry

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dande48
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Re: Joseph Smith makes me angry

Post by dande48 » 14 Sep 2018, 05:05

SamBee wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 00:38
Not completely sure of this. There are at least two stories involving him with positive interaction with Samaritans, and his relations with Romans were not always negative.
When a Cannanite woman asked Jesus for help, He called her a dog because of her race, and was only willing to toss her the "scraps" once she submitted the Jews were her "Masters" (Matthew 15).
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DarkJedi
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Re: Joseph Smith makes me angry

Post by DarkJedi » 14 Sep 2018, 05:22

dande48 wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 05:05
SamBee wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 00:38
Not completely sure of this. There are at least two stories involving him with positive interaction with Samaritans, and his relations with Romans were not always negative.
When a Cannanite woman asked Jesus for help, He called her a dog because of her race, and was only willing to toss her the "scraps" once she submitted the Jews were her "Masters" (Matthew 15).
But in the end he did praise her faith and healed her daughter. This is a story I've spent some time pondering because it is so different from the others included in the gospels where people asked for help or forgiveness and he just did it. I won't say I have the story figured out, it still perplexes me especially the disrespect he seemed to express toward her. But we don't know the whole story or even if it actually happened.

Back to Joseph, I don't think there are similar stories about him. Yes he was sometimes harsh to those who opposed him - even very close associates like Oliver - but I'm not aware of any where he was disrespectful (although I admittedly may be just unaware or they may still be whitewashed/hidden).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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On Own Now
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Re: Joseph Smith makes me angry

Post by On Own Now » 14 Sep 2018, 05:54

DarkJedi wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 05:22
dande48 wrote:
14 Sep 2018, 05:05
When a Cannanite woman asked Jesus for help, He called her a dog because of her race, and was only willing to toss her the "scraps" once she submitted the Jews were her "Masters" (Matthew 15).
But in the end he did praise her faith and healed her daughter. This is a story I've spent some time pondering because it is so different from the others included in the gospels where people asked for help or forgiveness and he just did it. I won't say I have the story figured out, it still perplexes me especially the disrespect he seemed to express toward her. But we don't know the whole story or even if it actually happened.
FWIW, here's my take. First, Jesus didn't call her a 'dog'. Rather, Jesus, who is well-known to have employed frequent use of metaphorical speech (parables) engaged with the woman in a metaphor, a queue that she followed, as a discussion of whether it was appropriate for a non-Jew to have access to the Jewish God. The answer? Yes.
I think the story can be taken kind of like being in college and going to the professor over a roughly graded assignment. At first, you get your grade, but most professors, if you give them a good argument, will reward your persistence in defending a correct position.
Secondly, the event pre-figures the taking of the Gospel to the Gentiles. In the NT view, Jesus came to the Jews to lay a foundation, but after his work was complete, the Good News went to all in the known world.
Finally, it is quite true that Jesus is often portrayed as frustrated by those around him who seemed always to be interested in "what's in it for me?" rather than following him with an attitude of "what can I become?" This story illustrates a case where a person wants something from Jesus, but after discussion, we learn that she has a faithful core, which is rewarded.
- - -
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
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"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
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dande48
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Re: Joseph Smith makes me angry

Post by dande48 » 14 Sep 2018, 17:26

FWIW, my point is, from a non-believing, secular point of view, Jesus was racist. i.e. He discriminated and treated people differently based on their race. But you can take the story, and through the "eyes of faith" reinterpret that view in a way which makes Jesus fully accepting regardless of race. The story of Jesus can be seen either way, pretty legitimately. It's true, we don't know all the details... that gives us leniency to view them however we'd like. What most of us tend to do, is interpret such stories in a way that supports what we already believe: Jesus loves everyone, and offers salvation to everyone.

Back to Joseph Smith. Both you and I can view one of Joseph's more grevious sins, such as polygammy, racism, spiritualism, false prophecy, etc, and be pretty disappointed by it. It undermines our faith in Joseph as all he claimed to be. But someone else, for example the people who wrote and read "The Standard", and take those same exact facts, and cast them in a brand new light. Suddenly, Joseph is a faithful prophet, willing to follow God even when he didn't disagree or didn't understand. He hated polygammy. He loved blacks. The prophecies weren't "false", we just didn't understand the full interpretation. He was speaking symbolically (i.e. Black people aren't cused with dark skin. It was a different, metaphorical curse placed on their ancestors).

And so the same stories which make our tummies turn, can enbolden another's faith. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely 100% objective truth out there. But our view of the truth is 100% based on our perspective.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

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SamBee
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Re: Joseph Smith makes me angry

Post by SamBee » 15 Sep 2018, 01:51

I get the impression Brigham Young was more of a racist. I believe there were one or two black people in the early church. I think Brigham Young's decisions may have been pragmatic in a cynical way i.e. not to become embroiled in the slavery debate and have Utah filled with runaway slaves or the dispute between the states which was upcoming and had been foreseen by Joseph Smith himself.

I get the impression neither had a close friendship with any black people, which was quite normal for the period.
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Re: Joseph Smith makes me angry

Post by Curt Sunshine » 15 Sep 2018, 15:25

Let's make sure we focus on helping Shawn and responding to his post. I didn't mean to detract from Shawn or Jospeh. I apologize for doing so.
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Heber13
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Re: Joseph Smith makes me angry

Post by Heber13 » 15 Sep 2018, 19:17

Joseph Smith is in the past.

You are allowed to be angry at things you think you know about him.

More important...what do we choose to do today?

Joseph helps us...or he shows us humanity we do not want to replicate or emulate.

He is dead. We are alive.

Shawn, remember that those that talk about Joseph are projecting themselves in their words about the myth of Joseph. It is about them.

You be Shawn. And forge your path and find your peace.

Nothing else matters. What you know about Joseph Smith isn't real. You are real. Today is real. Stay grounded in goodness. Let go of that which is not real.

Thanks for letting me share the projections of my soul 9n the topic. You can probably see where I'm at in my journey, and it may be helpful or useless to you and yours.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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