Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

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Reflexzero
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by Reflexzero » 27 Mar 2018, 08:49

dande48 wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 07:35


Since the Church responds to fault by saying "No one is perfect. Even we make mistakes", you would think they'd to a better job of preventing such awful mistakes from happening.
The last guy to officially admit the Church makes mistakes got demoted out of the First Presidency.

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LookingHard
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by LookingHard » 27 Mar 2018, 08:57

Reflexzero wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 08:49
dande48 wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 07:35


Since the Church responds to fault by saying "No one is perfect. Even we make mistakes", you would think they'd to a better job of preventing such awful mistakes from happening.
The last guy to officially admit the Church makes mistakes got demoted out of the First Presidency.
And was moved to head up the missionary department just as # of converts continues to plummet even as we have more missionaries than we did 10 years ago. I read the average today is 3.5. So if you are out for 2 years that is somewhere of 1 convert every 7 months. Given that some missions in the southern hemisphere are much higher, those in the north could be looking at once a year or even less.

Cnsl1
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by Cnsl1 » 27 Mar 2018, 12:41

Do you think the point of missionarying is more about converting the missionary rather than converting the world? Spend two years selling a product certainly helps cement your belief in the product. But I digress...

Great points above. It's certainly a problem with the system, and probably at least a little related to this being such a very large church. Obviously no scripture or church doctrine teaches us that this behavior is okay. Well... Okay... Obviously nothing in the gospels teach us that this behavior is okay. Too bad we didn't see this coming. I mean, we did put all those windows in the classrooms at church and made sure not to have a male teacher alone with the primary kids. I guess we don't trust the primary teachers (just the male primary teachers... women would never do anything inappropriate with a student.. 🙄). A male leader one on one with a minor is totally fine, because how else could they ask all the questions about sex?

I get it that there is agency. Leader A might feel inspired to call Brother X but Bro X can still decide to get "frisky" , which shouldn't be a condemnation if Leader A. We can't expect leaders to be omniscient. God supposedly is and He still lets agency run its course, and doesn't seem to protect these victims. We can, however, expect leaders to be forward thinking, to pay attention to red flags, and to work together to change a flawed system that supports and protects potential abusers within the system. Trouble is, most of the leaders are working within the paradigm that good men won't do bad things, that God is directly involved and will alert them if something is awry, and that Bishops and presidents and leaders possess some special ability to counsel anyone within their stewardship--that they are in fact God's vessel to minister to that part of the flock.

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SamBee
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by SamBee » 27 Mar 2018, 17:54

LookingHard wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 08:57
Reflexzero wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 08:49
dande48 wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 07:35


Since the Church responds to fault by saying "No one is perfect. Even we make mistakes", you would think they'd to a better job of preventing such awful mistakes from happening.
The last guy to officially admit the Church makes mistakes got demoted out of the First Presidency.
And was moved to head up the missionary department just as # of converts continues to plummet even as we have more missionaries than we did 10 years ago. I read the average today is 3.5. So if you are out for 2 years that is somewhere of 1 convert every 7 months. Given that some missions in the southern hemisphere are much higher, those in the north could be looking at once a year or even less.
We're not having a problem converting them but retaining them here. We have dozens each year and few stay around for very long.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SilentDawning
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by SilentDawning » 28 Mar 2018, 11:54

hawkgrrrl wrote:
24 Mar 2018, 16:46
I find it very disturbing that Sam Young who started a petition to cease youth interviews behind closed doors with bishops is being threatened with church discipline. He has 13,000 signatures. All he wants is to end a practice that has resulted in hundreds of documented (yet not verified) cases of abuse. When the church sides with status quo and leaders over victims, it's not on the side of right. Being a victim doesn't automatically mean you are at odds with the church. It's only when the church sides with abusers that such is the case.
This is at the heart of my angst toward the church. For an organization with a divine commission, it's deeply disturbing that when the organization makes a mistake, there is rarely an apology. We have seen a few over the years -- the disavowal of the priesthood ban, admission of polyandry -- but buried deep in LDS.org and no official announcement. Raise the essays in church and leaders are shocked you would bring them up -- they are primarily for dealing with doubters or people who raise these concerns privately. These was one apology from DHO about Mountain Meadow Massacre on the PBS.org special on the Mormons, which I appreciated. But these expressions of apology are rare, and there is an arrogance associated with the church making mistakes on a local level. Seen it many times.

Then there is the thin argument that starts with "what is the church?" as if nothing can stick to it from a mistake perspective -- it is all the mistakes of people. To me that is avoiding responsibility. A church is its policies, its mechanisms for handling complaints, its means of installing and monitoring the behavior of leaders, and its people. To say "the church is perfect but the people aren't" is to me, like saying "The church is perfect but the Church isn't". The people ARE the church, along with the policies, systems, structures and other features of the organization.

I am now somewhat thankful for my commitment crisis. It's almost like I have eaten from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And my eyes have been opened. I now have a balanced view of the church, and not a rose-colored one. And these problems with abuse also exist in our church. We need to acknowledge that, own it, and deal with it.

To me, a divine organization admits to, apologizes and makes restitution for its mistakes. it doesn't whitewash them or refuse to acknowledge them.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by hawkgrrrl » 28 Mar 2018, 13:09

For those who are interested, you can hear me on NPR, talking with Doug Fabrizio about this topic: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/authorit ... lds-church

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mom3
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by mom3 » 28 Mar 2018, 19:24

For those who are interested, you can hear me on NPR, talking with Doug Fabrizio about this topic: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/authorit ... lds-church
And now it's time for a good cry.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 30 Mar 2018, 07:08

On one hand I don't think it's fair to blame the Church for the bad behavior of one individual (one bad apple) basically acting on his own in a way that is clearly out of sync with what the Church tries to teach. But on the other hand I think the Church deserves a lot of blame for the way they reacted to this scandal and for creating an environment where situations like this could quite often be ignored and swept under the rug instead of faced and dealt with appropriately. For example, what was the deal with the official response talking about how she was a "former" member and only "briefly" a missionary?

As far as I can tell they were mostly trying to discredit the alleged victim and deny her claims like self-serving lawyers typically would. Is that what Jesus would do? I doubt it. And it's not like this is even a case of "he said, she said" to begin with, he has already been recorded basically admitting that he was out of line with multiple different sister missionaries, not just her. Maybe it's not enough to convict him of anything illegal but it easily seems like more than enough to not react the way they have so far. It's just not a good look and to me it gives the impression that they care more about trying to maintain the Church's reputation and the false expectation that the leaders are always right and should always be trusted than trying to protect their members from being victimized, or else some of them actually believe this false notion too much themselves to the point that they don't believe the victims in cases like this.
"Truth is what works." - William James

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LookingHard
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by LookingHard » 30 Mar 2018, 08:28

DevilsAdvocate - I am with you on this one on both parts.

NO organization will be able to eliminate 100% of abuse of almost any kind. But to me it is crystal clear the church is showing the last few weeks just how much they can be 2-faced and place protection of the good name of the church paramount to victims. The best recap of this was just released yesterday by Radio Free Mormon podcast.

I think the bites to their backside has not reached the climax (pun not intended). It sure feels to me like it is a #MormonMeToo swelling coming up. Even today another person brought up accusations from yet another prominent leader doing so no-no's and the victims reporting it to GA's and nothing happening and the perp continued to go onto other prominent callings. I doubt it is the last we will hear.

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dande48
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Re: Joseph Bishop (old MTC president sexual assaulting sister missionaries) situation

Post by dande48 » 30 Mar 2018, 09:18

DevilsAdvocate wrote:
30 Mar 2018, 07:08
On one hand I don't think it's fair to blame the Church for the bad behavior of one individual (one bad apple) basically acting on his own in a way that is clearly out of sync with what the Church tries to teach.
I think Food Quality Assurance (or QA of any kind) is a good analogy. Both my wife and I had previous work experience in that department. There will always be "bad apples". No matter how many highly-effective QA systems you have in place, a bad apple or two is going to get by. HOWEVER, when bad apples do "get by", the QA department needs to take the time to re-evaluate their process, find their weakness, and make re-adjustments to ensure bad apples are kept to a minimum.

In recent years, in the realm of sexual assault there have been many people vocalized "Blame the perpetrator and not the victim". And I fully agree, that the perps should take full responsibility for their actions. No one is Pro-Rape. But the truth is, the systems we have in place are VERY ineffective. If someone is placed in a compromising situation because of Church Policy, and that person is victimized, the perp is 100% responsible for their actions, but the Church also shares the blame.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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