On DFU Making it Back to the FP or Becoming Pres

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On Own Now
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On DFU Making it Back to the FP or Becoming Pres

Post by On Own Now » 18 Jan 2018, 17:53

The seniority sits like this at the moment:

President RMN: 93
DHO: 85
MRB: 89
JRH: 77
HBE: 84
DFU: 77

So, can DFU become President someday? Absolutely. He'd have to outlive a group that is at least 7 years older, plus one guy that is his same age.

Is there any upcoming situation that could see him return to the FP? Here are my thoughts:

- Under RMN - Seems unlikely, but it's certainly possible that one of the current counselors might not outlast RMN, or at least not be strong enough to keep going. To the rest of the world, putting DFU into the FP at that point would make a ton of sense, but RMN already showed his hand by moving DFU out, so I think that would be unlikely. I think RMN would be far more likely to chose JRH because of seniority or DAB/NLA because of philosophy.

- Under DHO - I think this is possible. Really hard to say. DHO can sometimes seem kind, but mostly, he seems dogmatic. My guess is he probably wouldn't bring DFU back, but this could go either way.

- Under MRB - of course, it seems quite unlikely that MRB would become the President... However, if it did happen, I suspect MRB would bring DFU back in. To me MRB is kind and caring old gentleman who is stuck in the past. But I would bet on his caring nature coming through and highlighting that with DFU at his side.

- Under JRH - I think this is a slam-dunk. In my mind, JRH, while he is too forceful most of the time, actually is very thoughtful about others and probably thinks of DFU as the most like himself.

- Under HBE - this is probably even more of a slam-dunk. I bet HBE feels a kinship with DFU not matched by anyone else, having served together in the FP for so long and also having been slighted together (DFU was removed from the FP, but HBE was also demoted within the FP).
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mom3
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Re: On DFU Making it Back to the FP or Becoming Pres

Post by mom3 » 18 Jan 2018, 23:59

I think this is where natural attrition holds it sway.

I just have to hope he won't be an early attrition.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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Re: On DFU Making it Back to the FP or Becoming Pres

Post by nibbler » 19 Jan 2018, 09:20

I don't know how much of a difference it would make. Or stated differently, the church can't place all of its hopes in the Uchtdorf basket.

You got me wondering though. What will it take to get a "young" prophet at the helm?

The last "holy cow, that guy is old" apostle I can remember was David B. Haight. RMN isn't too far from that age, though he appears relatively younger than his age.

RMN: 93
DHO: 85
MRB: 89
JRH: 77
HBE: 84
DFU: 77
DAB: 65

We seem destined to have a president of the church that is at least 80 years old until Bednar and by the time Bednar becomes a reality he could very well be in his 80s. Give RMN 2 years, give DHO 5 years after that. We're in January of 2025 with MRB at 96 and JRH at 84. Give JRH 8 years and that puts us in January of 2033 with DFU at 92 and DAB at 80. Give DFU 6 months and DAB 12 years and we're in July of 2037.

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Heber13
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Re: On DFU Making it Back to the FP or Becoming Pres

Post by Heber13 » 19 Jan 2018, 11:21

mom3 wrote:
18 Jan 2018, 23:59
I think this is where natural attrition holds it sway.
From what I can tell, reading on LDS.org and listening to others, I believe this is kind of what we accept as revelation for a prophet now, right?

If God does not want to call an Apostle to be the prophet, they will pass away before getting there. If God wants someone to be prophet, they are called long enough to outlive others. That seems to suggest god is pulling strings and causing Maxwell's cancer or Nelson's longevity.

From an outsider's perspective...that is talking crazy talk. Why would God work that way? Why not just have revelation, like a group (perhaps Cardinals) council to receive revelation on the next leader and then release either black or white smoke to signal the status?

From a believer point of view...it is the natural laws of a patient God allowing His will to unfold, and is more orderly than allowing competing objectives or debates on who the next leader is (even though we have a process for SPs or Bishops, so it works on other levels of the church).

It depends greatly on your point of view on how comfortable you are in believing one way or another.

One other point of view is...maybe it doesn't much matter. DFU, or Eyring or Oaks or any other apostle...the stone cut out of the hill is rolling and will roll with person X at the helm or person Y...God will work with last man standing. They're all good dudes and are buffeted for many years to prepare for it. They will either get the seat, or pass to the next world...either way...they're in good standing. And it is God's church, not man's, so any good dude that listens to Him will do in that calling. We could view it that way, less leader worship...more God worship despite imperfect mortals he is left to work with.
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Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
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Re: On DFU Making it Back to the FP or Becoming Pres

Post by mom3 » 19 Jan 2018, 11:54

You make good points Heber. Can you imagine the Maxwell talks we would have had? Wow.

As the days creep on, I am amazed how heartbroken I am. With all the awareness that I had that this was coming, the heartache is totally surprising to me. I knew I was a fan, but not this much.

Whatever the years hold, I will likely stuff DFU talks, addresses, news clippings into my soul like a starved child. Then I will cross my fingers and hope that the Gods are good to us and grant him enough time to spread the love he so generously has. Even if I took time away from church, I would still drink from his words.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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Re: On DFU Making it Back to the FP or Becoming Pres

Post by nibbler » 19 Jan 2018, 12:07

Heber13 wrote:
19 Jan 2018, 11:21
(even though we have a process for SPs or Bishops, so it works on other levels of the church)
Could you imagine if we had this process for bishops and stake presidents? The SP is SP for life (or unless they get called up to be an AA or out of desperation they decide to move across the globe ;) ). The BP is BP for life. When a SP dies, the BP with the longest time as BP is called to be the new SP.

"I'm in the Methuselah 10th ward, but it's great because our stake presidency has over 150 years of stake presidenting experience... at hating their jobs." :angel:

BPs and SPs have the added stress of juggling a career but I bet that if it was a lifetime appointment that knowledge alone would be deflating. You're tired and you know there's no respite. No light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe you phone it in on some days/years.

I wonder if that could be said of apostles. They reach a point where they had the same calling for 30 years, age is starting to take its toll, and now they outlived everyone and have the added pressure of having to leave their mark in a church that prides itself with never changing. Ever.
Heber13 wrote:
19 Jan 2018, 11:21
If God does not want to call an Apostle to be the prophet, they will pass away before getting there. If God wants someone to be prophet, they are called long enough to outlive others. That seems to suggest god is pulling strings and causing Maxwell's cancer or Nelson's longevity.

From an outsider's perspective...that is talking crazy talk. Why would God work that way? Why not just have revelation, like a group (perhaps Cardinals) council to receive revelation on the next leader and then release either black or white smoke to signal the status?

From a believer point of view...it is the natural laws of a patient God allowing His will to unfold, and is more orderly than allowing competing objectives or debates on who the next leader is (even though we have a process for SPs or Bishops, so it works on other levels of the church).
We kinda, sorta do choose who the next prophet is going to be but there's enough levels of indirection to help us convince ourselves that it's not political. If they called a guy in his 20s to fill one of the vacancies in teh Q12 there's a very strong chance that guy would eventually be prophet one day. But there's no talk of how politics factors into how new apostles are called up - it's only a concern with the big chair for some reason... but we're still all but picking and choosing prophets when we call apostles at the ages we call them.



Sorry. Way off topic.
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Re: On DFU Making it Back to the FP or Becoming Pres

Post by kate5 » 19 Jan 2018, 12:59

Mom3,

I just wanted to let you know you're not alone in the way you are feeling. I was very worried he would be taken out of the First Presidency but when it happened, I felt something die inside of me. Maybe it was hope. I don't know but I just felt to my core that this wasn't right. In a way, in confirmed the way I felt this church was going.

I realize that we're still going to hear from Pres. Uchtdorf but I feel like I'm grieving. I just can't put my finger on my emotions right now. I know it sounds generic but I just feel so sad.

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Re: On DFU Making it Back to the FP or Becoming Pres

Post by Katzpur » 19 Jan 2018, 13:12

I was sad, too, but not the least bit surprised. The Apostles, like all of us, are most comfortable around people who are like-minded. Dieter Uchtdorf is simply in another league. Nelson and Oaks are two peas in a pod.
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Re: On DFU Making it Back to the FP or Becoming Pres

Post by DarkJedi » 20 Jan 2018, 13:17

Yep, Mom, I'm there too. I've been an an emotional roller coaster the past couple weeks with this, some stuff at work, and a death in our ward (and the most moving rendition of "How Great Thou Art" ever). I'm just having a hard time getting over it.

Thanks for the analysis OON. There certainly is a shot at DFU becoming president and it's more than a long shot. I could also, in certain circumstances, see him called again as a counselor. MRB's chances are (thankfully) slim even though I don't perceive DHO to be as healthy as RMN. FWIW, MRB is either on or off with me, similar to JRH except except MRB is more off than on (just my opinions). JRH also has a shot, but I don't perceive him as being quite as healthy as DFU. HBE has almost no shot, he's older than both of those on either side of him and he's frail looking and acting (which makes me wonder why he wasn't the one returned to the quorum). The T Rex in the garden is that DAB is next in line after DFU and is almost a sure bet.

I have heard the "revelation" things Heber mentioned taught/testified of. That is, God calls them at the proper time if he is to be the prophet someday, because God knows the end from the beginning (a point of theology I sometimes question). On the other hand, I do think "politics" play a part. TSM was called before I was a member, but it's obvious he was called at such a young age to almost guarantee (unless there was a catastrophe) he would ascend. He was the golden boy. I believe DAB is likewise a golden boy, with the plan playing out as expected.

I would not be opposed to a JRH presidency and would love a DFU presidency (think about who he would call as counselors!!). I frankly dread a DAB presidency.

Just a little side research. Ages of current Q15 (13) when called:
QLC 67
RAR 64
DFU 63
DTC 63
DGR 62
HBE 61
GES 60
RMN 59
NLA 57
MRB 57
JRH 53
DAB 52
DHO 51

FWIW, TSM was 36, which was surprisingly not all that uncommon. While none of the current crop were less than 50, of the more "modern era" apostles, DOM was 32, Joseph Fielding was 33, HBL and M. Petersen were 43, ETB 44, BKP 45, and SWK 48.
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On Own Now
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Re: On DFU Making it Back to the FP or Becoming Pres

Post by On Own Now » 20 Jan 2018, 14:16

Thanks, DJ. A prior interesting case in age was Abraham O. Woodruff. He was called to the Q12 at the age of 25 while his dad was President of the Church. At the time, he was 14 years younger than anyone ahead of him in the quorum, which in today's world would have all-but-guaranteed his ascension to the Presidency. However, he died of smallpox after a visit to the Mexican Colonies just six and a half years later. Had he survived, he would have become the President at age 73 with the death of Heber J Grant.

The what-ifs are fascinating, because AOW was believed to have been a post-Manifesto polygamist... could have been pretty awkward for the Church to have a polygamist President living into the 1940's/50's.
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“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
- - -
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
- - -

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