If you liked Mason's talk at FairMormon, you'll Love this

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Sheldon
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If you liked Mason's talk at FairMormon, you'll Love this

Post by Sheldon » 21 Aug 2016, 14:13

Here is another talk from the FairMormon meeting from Grant Hardy that further expands the new direction that FairMormon is moving. This analysis is long, but give a good summation of the talk, and will go along way in helping lots of people Stay LDS

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mom3
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Re: If you liked Mason's talk at FairMormon, you'll Love thi

Post by mom3 » 21 Aug 2016, 14:26

I loved this one. I read the write up a couple of days ago. Hardy continues to impress me. I loved his BYU-Hawaii address a couple of years ago and now this. I keep hoping the FAIR direction continues this way. I think we need some branch of our religion helping to heal the great divide that now stands.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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DarkJedi
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Re: If you liked Mason's talk at FairMormon, you'll Love thi

Post by DarkJedi » 21 Aug 2016, 19:24

Here's a link to the transcript of the actual presentation: http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/ ... pologetics
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Ann
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Re: If you liked Mason's talk at FairMormon, you'll Love thi

Post by Ann » 22 Aug 2016, 07:54

It looks like Hardy, Mason and Isom have all made a big impression at FAIR - and, unusually, outside of FAIR - this year.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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LookingHard
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Re: If you liked Mason's talk at FairMormon, you'll Love thi

Post by LookingHard » 22 Aug 2016, 10:39

I really liked Mason's talk, but this one (at least the summary linked to) - not so much.
the Bible is what it looks like when God lets his children tell the story.
It just feels like this is putting so much water to thin out scripture to the point where it is nothing more than fiction (and a good fiction can have truths in it and teach).

As one person commented on the blog something to the effect, "Is this re-framing going to work? We will see if people are willing to go on missions to preach this." It is a lot less compelling. Should we go preach, "Chicken Soup for the soul"? I hope that does not sound blasphemous, but for me the apologetic response for many things seems to be, "decrease the meaning until the problems are no longer problems", then I am left with something close to meaningless (or at least drastically less meaningful).

Or am I missing something?

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mom3
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Re: If you liked Mason's talk at FairMormon, you'll Love thi

Post by mom3 » 22 Aug 2016, 12:33

I get your point. Hardy took me a while to find comfort with. The toughest part about any type of apologist explanation is that we know they have never fully gone down the rabbit hole. Hardy won't, ever.

What I do like is his academic approach to holy writ in general. His BYU-Hawaii piece was a call to embrace and love other people's scripture just like we love ours. I can get behind that. I know he doesn't answer everything, but in the past the voices of Eugene England and other broader thinkers got shut down, I am hoping that the voices of this FAIR conference open up those alternative voices, especially for believers. If that happens then there might be room for us misfits.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

GBSmith
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Re: If you liked Mason's talk at FairMormon, you'll Love thi

Post by GBSmith » 23 Aug 2016, 06:38

I enjoyed and agreed with his article up until the next to the last paragraph.
For me, I expect to see the resurrected Nephi and Moroni at the judgment bar. It matters to me that they are real individuals. At the same time, I’m not sure that God will ask, “Did you believe the right things about the Trinity, Joseph Smith, the plan of salvation, and the nature of revelation,” let alone my opinions about polygamy, same-sex marriage, blacks and the priesthood, women’s ordination, politics, or Mormon history. Rather, I believe he will say, “Were you my disciple? Did you strive to know me better? Were you constantly trying to refine your ideas and actions in light of your growing understanding? Were you fully engaged in the Church? How did you treat those with different beliefs and values? And by the way, you were wrong on a number of things you felt strongly about.”
If the particulars of Mormonism may not matter to God come judgement, how then are we different than a Episcopalian, or Baptist, or whoever. It seems he's suggesting that if you can't make sense of something, just put it on the shelf and don't worry about it since it's not that important anyway. I've done that and it's kept me looking like an active member to those around me but the effect is that I don't see the Mormon version of the gospel as anything special much less "true". Apologetics are for believers, not for someone that can't anymore.

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LookingHard
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Re: If you liked Mason's talk at FairMormon, you'll Love thi

Post by LookingHard » 23 Aug 2016, 08:22

I would be OK if "Were you fully engaged in the Church?" were changed to "Were you fully engaged in in doing good?"

I was about to say I would prefer to have "I expect to see the resurrected Nephi and Moroni at the judgment bar. It matters to me that they are real individuals." but when I re-read that, I was OK as he was saying, "Here is what I believe" and I can respect that - especially given the whole paragraph (minus my objection mentioned above).

Ann
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Re: If you liked Mason's talk at FairMormon, you'll Love thi

Post by Ann » 23 Aug 2016, 08:42

GBSmith wrote:If the particulars of Mormonism may not matter to God come judgement, how then are we different than a Episcopalian, or Baptist, or whoever.
We're becoming less different, but if we hang onto positive, core beliefs (like no one being consigned to a hell simply for being born in the wrong place and time), then we bring something valuable to the world table. I'd like to think of us all swapping beliefs around until we get it right.
It seems he's suggesting that if you can't make sense of something, just put it on the shelf and don't worry about it since it's not that important anyway. I've done that and it's kept me looking like an active member to those around me but the effect is that I don't see the Mormon version of the gospel as anything special much less "true". Apologetics are for believers, not for someone that can't anymore.
Thank you! I'm a little slow. Couldn't figure out why my blood pressure goes up when I read them. That's why I liked Thomas Withlin McConkie's book so much . It didn't read like apologetics.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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Orson
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Re: If you liked Mason's talk at FairMormon, you'll Love thi

Post by Orson » 23 Aug 2016, 08:56

LookingHard wrote: ...for me the apologetic response for many things seems to be, "decrease the meaning until the problems are no longer problems", then I am left with something close to meaningless (or at least drastically less meaningful).

Or am I missing something?
My view is somewhat different. I don't see the adjustments as "decreasing meaning", I see them as aligning with truth. If my expectations are demonstrated to be out of harmony with what can be verified, then I need to adjust them to become more compatible with what is known.

I also see space being created for personal experience, the goal is to communicate with God directly, without setting the bounds of an acceptable response before we begin to listen. If scripture is seen as a little bit more human then maybe we we can be willing to receive personal revelation without first dictating to God what an acceptable message will be.

Yes people will receive different messages. I believe that is part of the mortal experience, learning to deal with people who live on the other side of the coin. It becomes essential that God tell people different things.
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I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.

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