First vision accounts now available in gospel library

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
User avatar
Sheldon
Posts: 454
Joined: 14 Aug 2013, 13:44

Re: First vision accounts now available in gospel library

Post by Sheldon » 05 Aug 2016, 15:39

SilentDawning wrote:I don't see what the big deal is about the multiple FV accounts. You share things in different levels of detail depending on the context. I haven't read the different accounts, but do they conflict with each other? Like, JS saw 3 beings in one vision, and two in the other? One one of them was a woman? I am exaggerating a bit, but are they that different so as to raise suspicion about their authenticity? Allowing for differences in delivery, and detail, I'm not convinced they would be a source of a FC for me personally.
Usually when somebody is retelling a story over the years, things get more foggy, and less details are included. With the FV, JS actual added more details every time he told it. Also, JFS actually thought there was such a problem with one version that he ripped it out of the original document that he found it in and put it in the vault.

Reference to the JFS tearing the pages out can be found here

Ann
Posts: 2576
Joined: 09 Sep 2012, 02:17

Re: First vision accounts now available in gospel library

Post by Ann » 05 Aug 2016, 17:48

mom3 wrote: Wouldn't it be wonderful if any of us could publicly say, "I love the 1832 version." and not have heads spin or leaders freak. I believe many hurt souls could have be spared or saved if the leadership team (and I am more willing to say PR department) had put the facts out, encouraged families to learn about them together, and let the tide run it's natural course.
I think this is essentially what Richard Bushman says.

Again, it's the strong-arming that I dislike. Instead of insisting that there's no reason for us to majorly re-think our view of the First Vision, just give us the documents we have. Respect us, our commitment, our contribution over the years, our disorientation. And maybe it would be a good idea to stop favoring one version with canonization.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: First vision accounts now available in gospel library

Post by Curt Sunshine » 05 Aug 2016, 22:00

I doubt we will change the canonization, but we now do have all the versions published on lds.org - and, soon, in the manuals. That is a major step.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

User avatar
Shawn
Posts: 707
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 14:22
Location: Utah

Re: First vision accounts now available in gospel library

Post by Shawn » 07 Aug 2016, 10:12

Ray DeGraw wrote:2) The first account mentions one personage; the other three accounts mention two personages. If honestly retold, the first might have been a synopsis or summary that focused on the question of whether he had seen "the Lord"; the second one might have been a chronological restelling (one followed soon by another); the last two might have been a condensed account (both appearing together). The only real discrepancy would be the first one telling only of one personage - but the other three do mention him "seeing the Lord", so the first one isn't actually a contradiction of the last three. They all, easily, are consistent in that regard.
The first account is "the only account written in Joseph Smith’s own hand". The introduction begins with:
A History of the life of Joseph Smith Jr. an account of his marvilous experience and of all the mighty acts which he doeth in the name of Jesus Ch[r]ist . . .

He wasn't giving a verbal account to a specific person in a specific setting and it seems to me that it was not meant to be a "synopsis or summary that focused on the question of whether he had seen 'the Lord'". The introduction makes it sound like it was to be the authoritative and definitive history of Joseph Smith containing all of the most important details. I think Joseph changed the story, as he changed some verses in the Book of Mormon that originally supported a Protestant view of God.

User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 7271
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: First vision accounts now available in gospel library

Post by DarkJedi » 07 Aug 2016, 10:43

Shawn wrote:
Ray DeGraw wrote:2) The first account mentions one personage; the other three accounts mention two personages. If honestly retold, the first might have been a synopsis or summary that focused on the question of whether he had seen "the Lord"; the second one might have been a chronological restelling (one followed soon by another); the last two might have been a condensed account (both appearing together). The only real discrepancy would be the first one telling only of one personage - but the other three do mention him "seeing the Lord", so the first one isn't actually a contradiction of the last three. They all, easily, are consistent in that regard.
The first account is "the only account written in Joseph Smith’s own hand". The introduction begins with:
A History of the life of Joseph Smith Jr. an account of his marvilous experience and of all the mighty acts which he doeth in the name of Jesus Ch[r]ist . . .

He wasn't giving a verbal account to a specific person in a specific setting and it seems to me that it was not meant to be a "synopsis or summary that focused on the question of whether he had seen 'the Lord'". The introduction makes it sound like it was to be the authoritative and definitive history of Joseph Smith containing all of the most important details. I think Joseph changed the story, as he changed some verses in the Book of Mormon that originally supported a Protestant view of God.
I would agree that the story evolved over time and that evolution was in part due to what message was to be sent. The first two make a bigger mention of Joseph being forgiven of his sins with little mention of the future church while the last two focus more on the church and less on his personal forgiveness. That's why I believe the one that is canonized became the one canonized - it's about the message. I'm personally fine with a message of being forgiven by asking, but future church leadership clearly wanted to emphasize other things.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: First vision accounts now available in gospel library

Post by Curt Sunshine » 07 Aug 2016, 16:52

Shawn, I meant the part of the first account dealing with his vision might have been a summary or synopsis of that event - which would make sense in a comprehensive biographical work that included lots of other stuff. The idea that future tellings focused on the vision itself would contain more information about the vision itself makes perfect sense. I know I have done the exact same thing lots of times in my life.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Post Reply