I think that is true of any person in some kind of leadership. If we develop an opinion of someone that they never have a good thing to say we may miss when they actually say something. Of course the real trick is to learn when it is pure BS.SilentDawning wrote:I'm always disciplining myself NOT to write off what the leaders say entirely, even when they have weak moments like JRH did. But I don't hang on their words either, and I'm perfectly willing to accept their advice if it makes sense -- and perfectly willing to write it off as ridiculous if my conscience says so.Cadence wrote:Yawn. I think JH is just expressing his annoyance at those who leave. I just choose not to pay attention to him when he rants. Or really at any time.
Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland
Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” Neil deGrasse Tyson
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” Neil deGrasse Tyson
Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland
Everyone is more complex than a quick and easy description can provide.
Elder Holland said something beautifully inclusive in a quote referenced in HPG today. It truly was beautiful.
Elder Holland gets hyperbolic when he gets emotional, so I choose to chalk it up to emotionalism, dismiss it, and try to remember his many good statements. Honestly, I try to take that same generally charitable view with everyone - although it is harder with some people than others.
Elder Holland said something beautifully inclusive in a quote referenced in HPG today. It truly was beautiful.
Elder Holland gets hyperbolic when he gets emotional, so I choose to chalk it up to emotionalism, dismiss it, and try to remember his many good statements. Honestly, I try to take that same generally charitable view with everyone - although it is harder with some people than others.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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SilentDawning
- Posts: 7396
- Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55
Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland
Good point! And that is where the conscience comes in. At least if my conscience labels leader BS as true BS, then if I get hurt by ignoring it, I have no one to blame but myself. That's easier than feeling the church leader is to blame.Cadence wrote:SilentDawning wrote:Cadence wrote:Of course the real trick is to learn when it is pure BS.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young
Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland
Elder Holland recently addressed students at BYU and gave advice on how to become better saints.
1) be obedient (childlike)
2) forgive others
3) "be still and know that I am God." IOW have faith
In regards to this third point, Elder Holland said, "When you are being hammered on the anvil of adversity, when your soul is being refined with severe lessons that perhaps can be learned no other way, don't cut and run, don't jump ship. Don't shake your fist at your bishop or your mission president or God. Please stay with the only help and strength that can help you in that painful time. When you stumble in the race of life, don't crawl away from the very Physician who is unfailingly there to treat your injuries, lift you to your feet, and help you finish the course."
I parked it here because of the recurrence of the them of jumping ship.
1) be obedient (childlike)
2) forgive others
3) "be still and know that I am God." IOW have faith
In regards to this third point, Elder Holland said, "When you are being hammered on the anvil of adversity, when your soul is being refined with severe lessons that perhaps can be learned no other way, don't cut and run, don't jump ship. Don't shake your fist at your bishop or your mission president or God. Please stay with the only help and strength that can help you in that painful time. When you stumble in the race of life, don't crawl away from the very Physician who is unfailingly there to treat your injuries, lift you to your feet, and help you finish the course."
I parked it here because of the recurrence of the them of jumping ship.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland
I thought about Elder Holland's recent quote overnight. I agree with him that when going through major adversity is not a good time to make drastic life changes.
Where I disagree is in the presentation that the LDS church and the access to God gained through the LDS church are the "only help and strength that can help you."
I get it. Elder Holland sees anyone that stays in the church as succeeding and anyone that leaves the church as failing. However, even then, it seems quite hyperbolic to say that this is the "only" source of help. I don't think Elder Holland really believes that. Surely needed medication, a good counselor/therapist, and friends and family can also be a source of help. I suppose if I were to modify that sentence I would word it as follows:
"Please stay with the source of help and strength that wants only to help you in that painful time."
bolded changes are mine. I believe that this change keeps the spirit of what Elder Holland was trying to say.
Where I disagree is in the presentation that the LDS church and the access to God gained through the LDS church are the "only help and strength that can help you."
I get it. Elder Holland sees anyone that stays in the church as succeeding and anyone that leaves the church as failing. However, even then, it seems quite hyperbolic to say that this is the "only" source of help. I don't think Elder Holland really believes that. Surely needed medication, a good counselor/therapist, and friends and family can also be a source of help. I suppose if I were to modify that sentence I would word it as follows:
"Please stay with the source of help and strength that wants only to help you in that painful time."
bolded changes are mine. I believe that this change keeps the spirit of what Elder Holland was trying to say.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
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nibbler
- Posts: 4730
- Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
- Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe
Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland
He could have left it at, "When you are being hammered on the anvil of adversity, when your soul is being refined with severe lessons that perhaps can be learned no other way, don't cut and run, don't jump ship." No need to include those parts about being salty towards church leaders.
The phrase stay on the ship carries a lot of baggage; it's associated with staying with the church, which to me is unrelated to what I feel should be the heart of the message.
I like Jim Valvano's (basketball coach from when they still used large rocks as basketballs), "Don't give up... don't ever give up." In reference to fighting cancer. Maybe that's the lesson. Life is hard, no one escapes life unscathed, just stay in the fight, keep at it. If you have to shake your fist at a bishop to stay in the fight, shake your fist at a bishop. If you have to shake your fist at god to stay in the fight, shake your fist at god. God will understand... but stay in the fight.
It's understandable that a church leader will want to make life's battles about staying active in a church but life is so much larger than a church.
Impermanence is a blessing and a curse. The good times will not last, they won't, but the bad times won't last either.
The phrase stay on the ship carries a lot of baggage; it's associated with staying with the church, which to me is unrelated to what I feel should be the heart of the message.
I like Jim Valvano's (basketball coach from when they still used large rocks as basketballs), "Don't give up... don't ever give up." In reference to fighting cancer. Maybe that's the lesson. Life is hard, no one escapes life unscathed, just stay in the fight, keep at it. If you have to shake your fist at a bishop to stay in the fight, shake your fist at a bishop. If you have to shake your fist at god to stay in the fight, shake your fist at god. God will understand... but stay in the fight.
It's understandable that a church leader will want to make life's battles about staying active in a church but life is so much larger than a church.
Impermanence is a blessing and a curse. The good times will not last, they won't, but the bad times won't last either.
You can’t run from all your problems, but it will help you lose weight.
Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland
In my case, a lot of my adversity was caused by the church, especially on the mission. My one regret from my mission was sticking it out the whole two years instead of bailing when I realized I was miserable.