Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

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NightSG
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by NightSG » 03 May 2016, 07:04

SilentDawning wrote:Here is where I think what JRH did is a GOOD thing. He knocked himself off the pedestal that members put him on as "larger than life". As soon as you get these guys off the pedestal, you can enjoy a more peaceful relationship with the church than you did when they were ON the pedestal.
I used to work for a guy who did quarterly employee conferences wearing a dunce cap any time the profits were down. It was his way of forcing everyone (including himself) to remember that he's just a guy who screws up sometimes too.

Maybe they should roll a D12 to pick an Apostle to wear the cap each Conference.

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Sheldon
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by Sheldon » 03 May 2016, 09:11

Contrast Holland's words with the following

President Uchtdorf said:
One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?” Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations. Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.

In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.'
Which is more Christ Like?

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SilentDawning
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by SilentDawning » 03 May 2016, 09:17

Leadership Roulette -- it's what makes life interesting.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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On Own Now
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by On Own Now » 03 May 2016, 09:45

Sheldon wrote:Which is more Christ Like?
I'm so glad you brought this up. I was thinking about this talk by DFU, myself. And, I think it's a very interesting case study. Because to you and me, DFU's words are more christ-like. That's because what he said fits our perception the way Jesus was. But to JRH, he might think HE is being christ-like. The thing about trying to lean on what God or Jesus would do is really just a projection of what we would do, and because it's what we would do, and we think we are right, and God/Jesus are right, then they agree with us, so that's what God wants. ("God wills it", from the movie "Kingdom of Heaven").

You see, Jesus was portrayed as both merciful and judgmental. Anti-mormons I've talked to, and I mean the kind that think we are going to Hell, not the kind that are stating facts, often lean on Jesus' invective against the Pharisees as rational for why they can call out the faith of others.

And just to boil it down to two competing and conflicting statements, both attributed to Jesus, we can see that it's possible to find whichever type of christ-like-ness that we think is right.

In Luke 9, we have this passage:
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Yet, that loving, accepting, big-tent, Jesus is contrasted by these words of Jesus, just two chapters later, in Luke 11:
He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
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“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
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"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
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Old-Timer
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by Old-Timer » 03 May 2016, 09:49

[Admin Note]:

Let's be careful to remember our mission and our own attempts to be Christ-like.

I left a comment untouched that is against the spirit of this site, but it won't happen again. :smile:
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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On Own Now
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by On Own Now » 03 May 2016, 10:09

Old-Timer wrote:[Admin Note]:

Let's be careful to remember our mission and our own attempts to be Christ-like.

I left a comment untouched that is against the spirit of this site, but it won't happen again. :smile:
Just for my own clarification, which comment are you referring to as being against the spirit of this site? I'm not sure I've seen anything on this thread that I would categorize in that way.
- - -
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
- - -
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
- - -

Joni
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by Joni » 03 May 2016, 13:39

SilentDawning wrote:Here is where I think what JRH did is a GOOD thing. He knocked himself off the pedestal that members put him on as "larger than life". As soon as you get these guys off the pedestal, you can enjoy a more peaceful relationship with the church than you did when they were ON the pedestal. As soon as you recognize that all of these guys have weaknesses, that they are NOT larger than life, then they can make mistakes like JRH did, and you can still feel at peace with that aspect of Mormonism.
That's a really good point. JRH's rant showed that he doesn't have any kind of special apostolic insight as to why people leave - otherwise he wouldn't characterize leavers as lazy quitters, when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. JRH may be representing God but there is no way I believe that these words came from God's mouth to our ears. He strikes me as a man who's heavily invested in the church, both professionally and personally, and sees that the bottom line isn't doing well (despite many assertions to the contrary). Yet, the CEO of a business would have the sense not to say something like this about its customers where people can hear.

I really chafe at the implication that having questions means you're not fully committed. Some of my questions are big, HUGE, and even JRH can't answer them. I ride on this same merry-go-round with my husband. He's angry and upset that I'm trying to make it work (by visiting sites like StayLDS), but if I ever were to leave, the consequences would be dire. I'm darned if I do, and I'm darned if I don't.

Old-Timer
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by Old-Timer » 04 May 2016, 10:32

The one that said Elder Holland should be kicked off the Q12.

I left it alone as an emotional reaction, but we simply don't advocate anything like that.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by hawkgrrrl » 04 May 2016, 12:11

Joni:
"any kind of special apostolic insight"
I don't think there is such a thing as special apostolic insight. The original apostles, many of whom walked with Jesus personally, were certainly lacking in this regard, and even after the Day of Pentecost, they squabbled over their own opinions and misunderstood the gospel often. They were committed to it, willing to die for it, but they also had huge insight gaps. HUGE.

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On Own Now
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by On Own Now » 05 May 2016, 05:30

OK, thanks, Old-Timer. Mostly I wanted to make sure it wasn't anything I had said, since I couldn't easily identify an errant post. But now that you mention it, yes, I see what you are saying.
- - -
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
- - -
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
- - -

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