Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

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bridget_night
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Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by bridget_night » 30 Apr 2016, 06:10

http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/video ... -dare-bail Has this been discussed yet. It really upsets me and insults those who went through hell with their faith crisis before they left the church. Talk given recently.

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LookingHard
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by LookingHard » 30 Apr 2016, 06:29

http://rationalfaiths.com/malcom-gladwe ... authority/
Oops. I just posted a link above without seeing this first.
I have said over and over here that my biggest issue is with the current leadership. This just added to my distance with them. "I will NOT LET YOU LEAVE". I don't feel love. He does not get it - or if he does he has no way to combat it.

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LookingHard
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by LookingHard » 30 Apr 2016, 06:45

I did just listen to the talk. He mentions about the apostles being scared when on the boat and the storm comes. I couldn't help but think, "Sounds about like right now."

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Always Thinking
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by Always Thinking » 30 Apr 2016, 06:48

I much prefer when the leadership speaks with compassion and loving words saying that it makes them sad when we leave or things similar to that, that communicate genuine concern for people who are struggling with the church. It sounds a lot more Christ-like to me. Saying 'I will not let you leave' or that he doesn't care what we're dealing with, we should stay anyways, does not sound Christ-like whatsoever.

Eta: he sounds so intimidating. After saying he wouldn't let people leave then he says he wants to talk to any investigators afterwards and get them in the church, if I was investigator I'd be running for the doors!
Last edited by Always Thinking on 30 Apr 2016, 07:02, edited 3 times in total.

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nibbler
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by nibbler » 30 Apr 2016, 06:50

Whoa. Ordinarily I'd say it's classic Holland, where he gets super animated and emotional to drive home his message but this sounds like taking it to a new level.

Holland tends to get "fired up" and make extremely definitive statements about his beliefs. This really resonates with many members, it's why he is some people's favorite apostle, and why the devil checks under his bed to make sure Holland isn't lurking there. This one took it a little too far IMO. Here he's not pulpit pounding over the Book of Mormon or a literal Adam and Eve, he's pulpit pounding on our brothers and sisters.

The people laughing. I wonder if some of that is an uncomfortable laughter, because Holland feels threatening. Some of it may have been jokes, jokes at the expense of fellow citizens with the saints, but Holland seemed to feed on the laughter to give him permission to ratchet up the anger.

I think members leaving must be forefront on the minds of the apostles. It's a difficult challenge and maybe they have seen their efforts only result in more people leaving. That part of his talk where he talks about Jesus being tired and frustrated with people coming to him with their problems all the time. Might that be Holland talking about himself? Maybe he's worn down by the calling, perhaps even by the problem of attrition, so he becomes "furious" for a spell.
You can’t run from all your problems, but it will help you lose weight.

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bridget_night
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by bridget_night » 30 Apr 2016, 06:55

! I never had a problem with him until a couple yrs ago and his rant in Gen Conf abt the turned down page of Hyrum Smith's BofM from Carthage. That hurt.

Now Elder Jeffrey B says he is angry bcz I (we) have legitimate questions??? He never answers any questions ... He only rails against those who have them. Grrrrr!

It's hard to understand why you cannot have an honest and civil discussion with Jeffrey Holland without getting castigated. Of what use is that? His style of declarationism never solves a thing.

Minyan Man
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by Minyan Man » 30 Apr 2016, 06:58

In general, I think the leadership has difficulty relating to members that are "Inactive".
When I was Inactive, we had Bishops that were our HT. They kept us at "arms length".
As though we were contagious. Some of them I considered close friends when I was active.

Not once did they say "what's going on...?" or "what can I do...?" or "I miss not seeing you on Sunday"
My overall vibe was: I'm really uncomfortable being around you when you're "inactive".
That attitude comes from the top (GA) down to the local leadership.
It's the attitude that has to change not the hierarchy.

Ann
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by Ann » 30 Apr 2016, 08:23

I think he thinks that this kind of bluntness takes people into his confidence. Let's all be insiders. But something backfires for me. What he's been doing lately feels very different from Pres. Uchtdorf's consistent, dignified, respectful outreach.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

Roadrunner
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by Roadrunner » 01 May 2016, 07:06

Another in a series of self conficted wounds... Glad I wasnt at the meeting.

Roy
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Re: Don't You Dare Bail--Elder Holland

Post by Roy » 01 May 2016, 10:46

I am not having the same reaction as you. I want to be clear that my reaction in no way delegitimizes your reaction. I do however hope that some of you that have been offended can help me understand the nature of the offense.
bridget_night wrote:I never had a problem with him until a couple yrs ago and his rant in Gen Conf abt the turned down page of Hyrum Smith's BofM from Carthage. That hurt.
I went back and read this talk. He essentially states that if the book were false Hyrum and JS would not have turned to it for comfort before imprisonment. I do not buy into the argument - but it doesn't particularly surprise me that he makes it. Is this offensive because he acts like the BoM is obviously the word of God and that those with doubts are just not thinking about the issue clearly? Is the issue that he delegitimizes honest questions and observations about the BoM?
"Don’t you dare bail. I am so furious with people who leave this church. I don’t know whether ‘furious’ is a good apostolic word. But I am. What on earth kind of conviction is that? What kind of patty-cake, taffy-pull experience is that? As if none of this ever mattered, as if nothing in our contemporary life mattered, as if this is all just supposed to be “just exactly the way I want it and answer every one of my questions and pursue this and occupy that and defy this – and then maybe I’ll be a Latter-Day Saint”?! Well, there’s too much Irish in me for that."
bridget_night wrote:It really upsets me and insults those who went through hell with their faith crisis before they left the church.
I listened to the talk and I assume that this is the portion that is causing the concern. He seems to be saying that if the church is true then you should not abandon it no matter the cost. That if the church really does point to the ultimate reality, really does watch over the only true path to eternal fruition, really does have the only authority to administer essential ordinances - then one should be willing to sacrifice their first born child if necessary (just like Abraham) to weather the "storm" and ensure their continuation with the organization.

To do otherwise (i.e. to leave the church) would suggest that the whole time we were just playing at church and playing at religion and playing at knowing God's purpose for our lives. I looked up the words "patty-cake" and "taffy pull," They both seem to indicate a somewhat meaningless activity. Because Elder Holland is confident that the church really does safeguard the exclusive path to exaltation - he sees people who turn away as people who have surrendered their rudder and will now be tossed to and fro.

Yes, it is condescending and generalizing. However, it is not terribly different from what I might expect an LDS church leader to say. I don't see it as so much as an attack against me and my viewpoint as I see it as an emotionally defensive position around HIS viewpoint. He cannot validate me without diminishing himself.

I respectfully ask for someone to explain how this kind of declarations are all that different from what church leaders say all the time?
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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