Religious Leaders Resign over Ashley Madison Hack

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Heber13
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Re: Religious Leaders Resign over Ashley Madison Hack

Post by Heber13 » 09 Sep 2015, 08:48

There is never a time when suicide doesn't break my heart. To think someone is that out of options is wrong (there are always options to recover in life) and just causes more grief and pain for those who are left behind.

I would never hear a story of someone who invested in the stock market, lost it all, owed too many people and killed themselves and think..."they got themselves into it. I don't feel sorry." no no no no. I feel awful, and I think people who consider that as an option need to really get help from others who can help them through it and see there are better options.

It's sad. Period.

There are many examples of people making horrific decisions, but pay their price and work back into life and recover. I generally feel like people in society are initially very harsh and unforgiving upon hearing the shock of new news, but over time are very forgiving to the contrite soul who works to pay debts and learn from mistakes and change, even if they can never hold a public office or religious leadership position again...they can make a life again.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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On Own Now
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Re: Religious Leaders Resign over Ashley Madison Hack

Post by On Own Now » 09 Sep 2015, 09:11

Let me first say that the concept of the site itself makes me sick.

Having said that, the number of people exposed represents a negligible percentage of the people living today who have had extra-marital affairs. Singling this group out like this is unfair. We all have had moral failures at some level. And as Paul said, "While we still were sinners Christ died for us."

We often talk about "shaming" as if it is an LDS thing, but my view is that in this connected age, shaming is a part of online life that is widely accepted. We even do it here. We may not use names, but we use "woman in my ward", "the bishop", and "a friend", sometimes even "DH/DW" and then apply shaming terms for our own benefit and then go around the room looking for validation.

I don't really have sympathy for people caught cheating, but I do have sympathy for people judged in the public domain without the ability to defend themselves. Some of these people might be in broken marriages. Some might be emotionally repressed due to sexual issues. I'm not condoning, but just recognizing that there are probably some names on the list that have special circumstances. We have no idea about them individually, but what we do have is their names. If StayLDS were hacked and all our real names published in the Deseret News, I suspect that we would have strong emotions about it... and would hope that our friends would act toward us charitably.
Last edited by On Own Now on 09 Sep 2015, 09:39, edited 1 time in total.
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“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
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"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
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Heber13
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Re: Religious Leaders Resign over Ashley Madison Hack

Post by Heber13 » 09 Sep 2015, 09:26

On Own Now wrote:We often talk about "shaming" as if it is an LDS thing, but my view is that in this connected age, shaming is a part of online life that is widely accepted.
I think it is apart of life in general. Shame can be a good thing, I think. Just....not when it goes so public and unforgiving.
On Own Now wrote:If StayLDS were hacked and all our real names published in the Deseret News, I suspect that we would have strong emotions about it... and would hope that our friends would act toward us charitably.
That's quite an interesting point to think about....except...I am not doing anything wrong here...so, I guess I don't fear that much. Heck, even Ray has in the past used his full name, with no shame.

I like the point though, and think kids need to understand as well, that I don't think I should ever say online something that I wouldn't say to someone's face in person in full identity, if I had to. There are reasons anonymity makes things easier to work through some things positively...but not to hide and be duplicitous.

If I had to...I would take all my posts here on this site and print them and sit with church leaders, and feel no shame.

It has more to do with the feeling I have that the church doesn't have a good way to have these conversations with me or to understand my point of view, than it is about I'm doing anything wrong. There is a difference between StayLDS.com and AshleyMadison and the motives of people being involved, and that changes why anonymity would be good or bad...based on the motives...not anonymity itself.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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On Own Now
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Re: Religious Leaders Resign over Ashley Madison Hack

Post by On Own Now » 09 Sep 2015, 09:38

Heber13 wrote:I am not doing anything wrong here...so, I guess I don't fear that much.
I agree, and that's how I feel as well. Yet, there are those who would disagree with "not doing anything wrong here." I still guard my privacy and don't want my name revealed to be judged by others who don't feel the same way I do. I don't use my real name here. But anyone who wants to tell us their real name, feel free. In fact, I think everyone who is willing should say their real name, right here on this thread. Please include the town you live in and the name of your home ward.
- - -
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Jung
- - -
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." ― Romans 14:13
- - -

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Heber13
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Re: Religious Leaders Resign over Ashley Madison Hack

Post by Heber13 » 09 Sep 2015, 09:43

My name is John Smith. I'm in the 1st ward, on Main Street in Springfield.
:mrgreen:

I agree with you, that I don't know how others will use the information. I'm not hiding...but I am not drawing attention. I just want have open discussions.

Heber.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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SunbeltRed
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Re: Religious Leaders Resign over Ashley Madison Hack

Post by SunbeltRed » 09 Sep 2015, 10:08

I have strong feelings on this -

Despite my disagreement with someone joining a site like this, to have it made public and shame and destroy marriages and family relationships is more evil. Innocent spouses and children caught in the cross hairs and brushed aside as collateral damage. Are those engaging in adultery wrong, yes, but I deplore those who work in anonimity (the hackers in this case) somehow feeling that exposing others anonymity is somehow a noble endeavor.

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Heber13
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Re: Religious Leaders Resign over Ashley Madison Hack

Post by Heber13 » 09 Sep 2015, 10:14

I agree, SBR, that it is wrong. But...I feel less sympathy for the people who were outed. Eventually...it would have became known in the relationships, one way or another. So the main fault for the damage to spouses and children still sits with the "users" of the site. Creators of the site have a fault for trying to make money on this, hackers have a fault for their approach...but those that signed up created their family's situation, and not likely the only time they were going to make those poor choices.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Holy Cow
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Re: Religious Leaders Resign over Ashley Madison Hack

Post by Holy Cow » 09 Sep 2015, 10:23

I agree that it was sad to see how many people were actually on the Ashley Madison site, because that number represents a lot of people who are hurting in their relationships. I'm not going to judge them, because I don't know everybody's individual situation. I just find it sad. I do wonder, though, how many of those on the site were actually active users. I've heard of people signing up for an account on there, just because they wanted to see if they could find their spouse on their. Which is also sad, that they would have to go look. And I remember seeing a statistic on one of those articles that came out soon after the leak, which showed that many of the users listed had created an account, but had never logged back in after that. And, that a significant number of the female memberships were created from identical IP Addresses, which meant there were probably many female accounts being set up by bot-accounts which were not actual humans, but were created just to inflate the number of female accounts to make it seem like there were more women using it than actually were. So, there are a lot of interesting 'talking points', but I don't put a lot of thought into any of it, without personal knowledge of any of it. I'm skeptical, by nature, so I question a lot of the information I hear about anything, including a lot of the stuff being said about the Ashley Madison hack. :think:
What it all boils down to for me personally, though, is that it's just unfortunate that their are so many struggling relationships out there that have even made that website possible (and profitable). :(
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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Religious Leaders Resign over Ashley Madison Hack

Post by Curt Sunshine » 09 Sep 2015, 16:05

If I would have responded more broadly in my earlier comments, I hope I would have been as eloquent as On Own Now.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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