Giving a talk on SSM, Marriage, and Inclusion: Suggestions?

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Old-Timer
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Re: Giving a talk on SSM, Marriage, and Inclusion: Suggestio

Post by Old-Timer » 08 Jul 2014, 11:48

I absolutely adore Chieko Okazaki, and that quote is one of my favorites. I absolutely would use it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SunbeltRed
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Re: Giving a talk on SSM, Marriage, and Inclusion: Suggestio

Post by SunbeltRed » 08 Jul 2014, 12:44

Great thoughts everyone! Much appreciated and feel free to keep them coming.

If anyone would be interested I would be happy to post a copy of my talk here or send in a PM next week and would welcome some feedback. Let me know if interested.

-SBRed

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SunbeltRed
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Re: Giving a talk on SSM, Marriage, and Inclusion: Suggestio

Post by SunbeltRed » 08 Jul 2014, 12:46

Also,

Does anyone have any good stats, or resource for stats on #'s related to gay LDS and depression or suicide? Was thinking I could offer some data points to help people empathize with the internal struggles our brothers and sisters deal with and how it affects their mental health.

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Re: Giving a talk on SSM, Marriage, and Inclusion: Suggestio

Post by Roadrunner » 08 Jul 2014, 12:53

This might be too controversial, but you could quote article of faith #9 and say that it's possible we'll receive further clarification on this topic in future years.

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Re: Giving a talk on SSM, Marriage, and Inclusion: Suggestio

Post by Old-Timer » 08 Jul 2014, 13:44

Honestly, I would stay away from quoting depression and suicide rates in a Sacrament Meeting talk - although I would have no problem reading something from turinturambar or the Chieko Okazaki quote and simply saying something like:
It's understandable that the depression and suicide rates among gay people, in general, and in the LDS Church are significantly higher than in the general population. Really loving someone who is different, in any way, isn't just a nice idea or a good concept; in many cases, it might bring a measure of joy to someone who has precious little happiness and, literally, help save lives.


If you want to research those rates, I would check out Natasha Parker's ("Mormon Therapist") stuff:

http://www.natashaparker.org/ and http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Re: Giving a talk on SSM, Marriage, and Inclusion: Suggestio

Post by SunbeltRed » 08 Jul 2014, 13:47

Thanks Ray. Appreciate the feedback and good idea to not cite anything specifically, but help people understand in a more generalized tone.

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turinturambar
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Re: Giving a talk on SSM, Marriage, and Inclusion: Suggestio

Post by turinturambar » 09 Jul 2014, 17:33

I don't know if this will add to the discussion or not. But I feel like I should point out that we may say that we can still be kind to those with whom we disagree, but it's going to take a lot more than just saying "we love you" to convince them. Don't be surprised if gays and lesbians don't believe it. It's going to take more than just words. We need to show the love, perhaps for a while before they believe it. As I think about it, it might be too controversial a point to make in the talk. But I think it's good to understand during the preparation of the talk.

Along the same lines, the Church feels very strongly that it must oppose same-sex marriage in order to honor it's beliefs. But it's equally important to understand that this topic is very personal for LGBT folks. We need to understand just exactly what it means personally to a gay couple who is prevented from being married or adopting each other's children. How would you feel if an outsider came into your life and told you than you couldn't be married to your spouse anymore? So again, don't be surprised if they don't believe it when we say "we love you."

I'd like to see what others think of this.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 13:2‎)‎

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Re: Giving a talk on SSM, Marriage, and Inclusion: Suggestio

Post by Forgotten_Charity » 09 Jul 2014, 17:50

turinturambar wrote:I don't know if this will add to the discussion or not. But I feel like I should point out that we may say that we can still be kind to those with whom we disagree, but it's going to take a lot more than just saying "we love you" to convince them. Don't be surprised if gays and lesbians don't believe it. It's going to take more than just words. We need to show the love, perhaps for a while before they believe it. As I think about it, it might be too controversial a point to make in the talk. But I think it's good to understand during the preparation of the talk.

Along the same lines, the Church feels very strongly that it must oppose same-sex marriage in order to honor it's beliefs. But it's equally important to understand that this topic is very personal for LGBT folks. We need to understand just exactly what it means personally to a gay couple who is prevented from being married or adopting each other's children. How would you feel if an outsider came into your life and told you than you couldn't be married to your spouse anymore? So again, don't be surprised if they don't believe it when we say "we love you."

I'd like to see what others think of this.
Hmm, it feels incredibly weird to read a thought as basic as that to the foundation of all relationships and basic real everyday psychology 101 and see it as controversial. After all, how can we progress on the layers upon layers of adult relationship moral interactions if it's controversial for the basic foundations of doing what it takes to establish healthy ones?

If such was actually controversial, I'm not sure I would want to spend much time with people where we can't talk about the basic of the basics of healthy relationships. I'm certain I wouldn't call such people friends.

Are we underestimating here? I hope so.

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Re: Giving a talk on SSM, Marriage, and Inclusion: Suggestio

Post by Old-Timer » 09 Jul 2014, 18:29

That is a great point, turinturambar - and I agree that Sacrament Meeting might not be the proper place to bring it up, especially in an initial talk. However, Stake PEC might be an excellent place to mention it with a Stake President who is sympathetic and wants to be inclusive.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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mom3
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Re: Giving a talk on SSM, Marriage, and Inclusion: Suggestio

Post by mom3 » 09 Jul 2014, 18:50

Turin - your personal insight is a gift to all of us. Thank you. I concur with your statement that just saying "We love You" is not enough and maybe reluctantly received. I have experienced that disparity in other areas of my life, maybe not to the full depth but enough to know words can be cheap. Actions and sincerity are always the proof point of anything we say.

However as a general congregation just getting the idea across that LGBT members are valuable is going probably begin with words. Words that may not collect a harvest of actions in the short term, but every time those words are spoken, especially by a leader - rain water, even if it is only a drop, begins to water the ground.

For my part and my family we have lesbian friends, they aren't members but they are our dear friends. We interact with them happily. This is big. In or out of the church. A couple of weeks ago a woman in my ward confided she thought her daughter was gay or something like it, I was able to gently tell the mom to keep the relationship strong no matter what. I don't know if it will work, but it might, and one healed home is another step forward. As for the girl I see her every Sunday. I say hi to her just like everyone else because she is one of us and is valid.

So no words won't fix it. But we can and we have the words of Church leaders (not many) to support our actions. We here may need to pony up our actions a bit more to help turn the tide. I am thrilled that another Stake Leader is hoping to build a bridge. We have a few of them, a couple more won't hurt.

Turin - keep the info coming. I need the reminders often. You have taught me much. Thanks.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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