The Future of Ordain Women?

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SilentDawning
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The Future of Ordain Women?

Post by SilentDawning » 25 Jun 2014, 08:26

Just reflecting on what the future of Ordain Women (OW) will be now that their leader is excommunicated. I have my thoughts below, but wonder what you all think.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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SilentDawning
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Re: The Future of Ordain Women?

Post by SilentDawning » 25 Jun 2014, 08:55

My thoughts:

One one hand, Kate seems determined to to keep agitating for change. She currently has nothing to lose personally, as her Church membership is taken away from her, and she doesn't appear willing to meet the requirements to get it back. In this sense, I think the church has inadvertently strengthened the commitment and freedom of the leader of the OW organization.

However, a movement is not a movement without a following.

So, for me, the future of OW as an active group will depend on how willing her Board members (first) and other followers (second) are willing to continue agitating for change in a highly visible manner. The church has not gone after the board members at this point -- but they could do so in the future (the VP [if any], and any other staunch supporters) if the group continues demonstrating and proselyting.
Last edited by SilentDawning on 25 Jun 2014, 13:04, edited 1 time in total.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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cwald
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Re: The Future of Ordain Women?

Post by cwald » 25 Jun 2014, 09:28

Fwiw....

OW had never been my issue or fight, until now. Jwald and I both plan on posting a profile when we get home from our travels.

I see it as an act of support for civil rights, as well as a protest against a large corporation that has been less than honest through this whole process.

Just my opinion.

True, we are not active and have no influence, but we are still members and I feel I have every right to voice my opinion. I gave 40 years of my time, talent and money to this church.

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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

Roy
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Re: The Future of Ordain Women?

Post by Roy » 25 Jun 2014, 17:03

I suppose it depends. If the mission of OW is to push for change in the LDS church - how does that help if most of the members become excommunicated.

You could continue the fight to the benefit of those members that remain and have at least tacitly rejected you or to the benefit of future generations of LDS women still unborn.

If I were excommunicated I don't know that I would have the motivation to continue. But then I'm not one to take a stand for principle's sake. I likewise would not have been able to continue in the face of the sacrifices that the women's sufferage movement was forced to endure. I am thankful for the societal contributions of people that refuse to back down.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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SilentDawning
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Re: The Future of Ordain Women?

Post by SilentDawning » 25 Jun 2014, 18:30

Roy wrote:I suppose it depends. If the mission of OW is to push for change in the LDS church - how does that help if most of the members become excommunicated.
They can still attend church, still have fellow ship with the saints, still blog and attract supporters, and now they are free to do so. They are also free to publish now without consequences, and can interview with the press etcetera, and even proselyte.

it's kind of like after you give up your TR, as some of us have done. No longer does the church have anything to hang over your head regarding accepting unwanted callings, tithing, or other things -- they no longer have any strings to pull. Excommunicated members -- excommunicated for the cause they are fighting for, have the same freedom but on a larger scale -- nothing to lose and can act even more freely than before. That's dangerous on a large scale, from a church perspective. Excommunicate a ton of them for their agitation, and you end up with a group that has its own identify and will seek comfort in banding together.

I also think sacrifice breeds commitment. So, if I was Kate, I'd feel even more committed to my cause given the sacrifices I made -- but only so long as I had the support of people I am leading, and those numbers grow over time. I would need something to sustain that commitment over time, and I'm not sure what that will be for Kate, but in the short term, I'd be more committed than I was before.
You could continue the fight to the benefit of those members that remain and have at least tacitly rejected you or to the benefit of future generations of LDS women still unborn.
Agreed. Some might take that stance and might find it motivating.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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SunbeltRed
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Re: The Future of Ordain Women?

Post by SunbeltRed » 25 Jun 2014, 19:09

I don't have any good idea about the future of OW. Along with cwald, was never my fight either. My wife, who is a non-literal Mormon, is not a fan of OW and resents much of the agitation they have caused.

I tend to think OW will go the way of past Mormon feminist movements, but those movements were before the internet and 24/7 news cycles. Although, people get easily distracted and new stories, especially more localized stories like this one, get drowned out by bigger stories as time goes on.

So in other words, I have no idea :smile:

church0333
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Re: The Future of Ordain Women?

Post by church0333 » 25 Jun 2014, 19:16

I added my profile on the day KK was exed, it has not been added yet. I heard that she stepped down as top leader maybe because she will be out of the country. The new leaders should just continue to respectfully go about their work. There might be a lot more support now that the whole world knows about it. The Brethren should have just let them go to the priesthood session.

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SilentDawning
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Re: The Future of Ordain Women?

Post by SilentDawning » 28 Jun 2014, 15:11

I was surprised by the Pew poll that indicated about 90% of LDS women and 84% of LDS men are in favor of women NOT holding the priesthood (not sure if this is TBM, or all flavors of LDS commitment). So I don't see any broad-based support for the ordination of women. Sadly, I think Kate is going to be viewed as an early pioneer for women's status in the church, and I question if ordination of women will happen any time soon. And OW will have to figure out how to keep the engine going -- difficult when there is likely to be little change from their efforts other than media attention or perhaps more excommunications.

I find the church HAS reversed policy in the past (for example, there was once a widespread question in interviews about whether you [engaged in oral sex]) that disappeared. and we saw the temple ceremony do away with certain aspects people found graphic/disturbing. But I remember unofficial opposition being fairly widespread against those aspects of church policy.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: The Future of Ordain Women?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 28 Jun 2014, 17:28

SD: The stats in those polls are slightly misleading in that if you worded the question "Would you support female ordination if the prophet stated that it was time?" you'd get nearly unanimous support. What does that say about the poll? That Mormons, unlike other denominations, are far more authoritarian and obedient, looking to leaders to tell us what to do.

I'm tired of talking about OW and Kate. The church needs to engage thoughtfully with women and hasn't done much of that up to now. OW achieved its aim in that it expanded the Overton window. The church is now on record as saying that these questions are OK. I think the church's primary objections were partly strawman arguments: 1) that OW proselyted followers by creating six discussions (and yet the content of those discussions wasn't false doctrine - they mostly pointed out cultural assumptions), and 2) that the wording of the OW mission statement indicated that the group was at odds with church leadership and making unwavering demands for ordination, that nothing less would suffice. If that was their intent, it wasn't clear to those of us listening to them because they continually stated that ordination was the clearest way to achieve equality (although I'm still not convinced that it is). But the wording of the mission statement was needlessly inflammatory and easily misunderstood. There are some in OW leadership who had already left the church, and I wondered if their aims were more inflammatory than the faithful in the group. Such it is with any activist movements.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: The Future of Ordain Women?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 28 Jun 2014, 17:33

There are some in OW leadership who had already left the church, and I wondered if their aims were more inflammatory than the faithful in the group.


That had to play a role in how the group was perceived.

What is the future? Whatever they make it be. I don't mean that dismissively, but I have no idea what they will make it be.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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