Feeling like Samuel the Lamanite, Captain Mormon, and Moroni

Public forum for topics that don't fit into the other categories.
User avatar
cwald
Posts: 3628
Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 06:39

Re:

Post by cwald » 18 Feb 2014, 17:11

Ann sent me a PM about this comment. She understands what I was saying, but got me thinking. I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding by those who lurk on this board, including StayLDS members, family members and my local leadership, as far as my "faith" is concerned.
cwald wrote:Oh. He isn't? I didn't realize he was not an Apostle. I guess my apathy is starting to work! :)

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Yeah. Apathy is my goal anymore. It's the only way I have found to deal with the pain and anger and frustration.

Once upon a time, years ago, I was accused by family members of being luke warm. That really bothered me....I was so far from luke warm...I don't know if anyone can really understand just how far from lukewarm I was. I took the church very serious and was raging hot to find the answers and the truth and a middle way to remain Mormon. Hot. Very hot. There was no luke warm to be had in my spiritual journey at that time.

It simple didn't work for me. So now...yes....my goal...is total, utter apathy for all things Mormon. I have a ways to go yet.

I think mom3 is so correct. And I completely understand her OP. Yes. I get it. I've often compared my feelings about the church to those of Mormon and Moroni. I simple lost hope in my people. I lament that the mormon church is not as true as the people who belong to it. Once the church takes away the MIddle Way, which does happen to some of us, the only defense left against pain, frustration and anger, is apathy.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

User avatar
mackay11
Posts: 2045
Joined: 01 Nov 2012, 18:01

Re: Feeling like Samuel the Lamanite, Captain Mormon, and Mo

Post by mackay11 » 18 Feb 2014, 18:20

Ann wrote:
mackay11 wrote: I've just been called out on this by two different people. They've said: "how are you reading a March 2014 article when we're only just receiving our February edition?"

I'm a little stumped.

"Umm... because I trawl around apostate websites looking for dirt to get mad about" (that's not going to cut it is it?)

I thought it was already on LDS.org so only realised it's on another "holding" website that the church owns. If you try going to the website it's hosted on you just get:

http://ldscdn.org/
If it were me, I'd say that I'm a regular reader at By Common Consent, and that they linked to it there. In my mind, it's a totally legit site that any fair-minded person can respect. Also, isn't there a discussion going on at MDDB? I don't read there at all, but that's considered "faithful," I think. (?)
LOL, that was me starting the thread. I'm canard78 on MDDB. My relative who asked the question would consider even MDDB (mormondialogue for the newbies) to be apostate (they still believe in a hemespheric BoM model etc).

(And yes cwald, like a dog returning to his vomit, I started posting on MDDB again. I'm sorry).

The family member has asked to speak to me rather than exchange messages by text. Uh-oh.

User avatar
mackay11
Posts: 2045
Joined: 01 Nov 2012, 18:01

Re: Re:

Post by mackay11 » 18 Feb 2014, 18:30

cwald wrote:Ann sent me a PM about this comment. She understands what I was saying, but got me thinking. I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding by those who lurk on this board, including StayLDS members, family members and my local leadership, as far as my "faith" is concerned.
cwald wrote:Oh. He isn't? I didn't realize he was not an Apostle. I guess my apathy is starting to work! :)

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Yeah. Apathy is my goal anymore. It's the only way I have found to deal with the pain and anger and frustration.

Once upon a time, years ago, I was accused by family members of being luke warm. That really bothered me....I was so far from luke warm...I don't know if anyone can really understand just how far from lukewarm I was. I took the church very serious and was raging hot to find the answers and the truth and a middle way to remain Mormon. Hot. Very hot. There was no luke warm to be had in my spiritual journey at that time.

It simple didn't work for me. So now...yes....my goal...is total, utter apathy for all things Mormon. I have a ways to go yet.

I think mom3 is so correct. And I completely understand her OP. Yes. I get it. I've often compared my feelings about the church to those of Mormon and Moroni. I simple lost hope in my people. I lament that the mormon church is not as true as the people who belong to it. Once the church takes away the MIddle Way, which does happen to some of us, the only defense left against pain, frustration and anger, is apathy.
I get this. I've decided that I need to pilot an honest middle-way. I was having a late-night big mac with the branch president this evening (it's becoming a tradition - we hang out and chat after PEC once a month).

I'd asked what he thought of what had been put on facebook (apologising for any hassle he might get from other members complaining about it). He said that while he agreed in part with what I said, he felt my reaction had been a little excessive. He pointed out that just because you feel a certain way, you don't always have to voice it. Sometimes, for example, you wife might look tired and bedraggled but that doesn't mean you have to tell her so.

He's a good friend and I take his feedback openly. I told him that I accepted what he was saying but was trying to pilot/test an approach that was sustainable. I acknowledged that, on reflection, monologues on facebook are probably not the best communication channel. You can't control how it's received. I said that despite all that, I couldn't continue to pretend and would only feel comfortable teaching/saying things that I genuinely believed, which was why I was appreciating being able to teach gospel principles through a lens that works for me. He told me that he was hearing only positive feedback from the GP lesson, so told me to go ahead with whatever test I was doing.

It's a shame that reactions to "being honest" are sometimes met with love and support and other times met with suspicion and hostility. I'm sorry you drew the short straw cwald.

User avatar
opentofreedom
Posts: 179
Joined: 11 Jun 2013, 09:36

Re: Feeling like Samuel the Lamanite, Captain Mormon, and Mo

Post by opentofreedom » 18 Feb 2014, 19:59

Cwald, I totally understood what you meant as well. I don't know if apathy is ever possible for me, maybe though? When I try to be "apathetic" I tend to just eat more and watch WAY TOO much TV and numb my brain.. wait ... maybe I AM apathetic after all.. haha

Mackay wrote
(And yes cwald, like a dog returning to his vomit, I started posting on MDDB again. I'm sorry)
:lol: :lol:
Thanks for the awesome image. hahaha

I agree that it isn't fair that the same experiences are met in such different ways and that Cwald got the short end... paving the way for the rest of us to some degree. I hope in the future we will be allowed to express out opinions/doubts/beliefs/fears comfortably in church and among church members.

Heber13 wrote
Its great when you embrace the diversity of thought and perspective, despite not being taught to do so. Its liberating. I think it helps me feel closer to God.

Love it. So very true to me. I feel closest to God when I am talking, listening to others perspectives.. and even debating (in a way) about God. (When I say debating I mean going back and forth on ideas but equally respecting each others ideas.
Namaste: the divine light in me honors the divine light in you.

“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
cwald
Posts: 3628
Joined: 10 Aug 2015, 06:39

Post by cwald » 18 Feb 2014, 20:11

"MDDB...like a dog returning to it's vomit. "

StayLDS quote of the week.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

Dax
Posts: 218
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 09:08

Re: Feeling like Samuel the Lamanite, Captain Mormon, and Mo

Post by Dax » 18 Feb 2014, 23:54

I have been trying to put into words all day what this article will mean to the thousands of YW/women that will be taught from it. Beyond the modesty issue of being responsible for men's thoughts yet again, now abused women "attracted" the man based on her dress and worthiness? How if you are a licked cup cake there realy is no hope for you finding a priesthood holder that will want to take you to the temple regardless of the atonement. How men have been guven yet another example that it realy is women's responsibility to prevent men from having "unclean thoughts". The fact that the top choose this article to be published in the ensign puts the stamp of approval from the prophet for most TBMs which means the "thinking is done". Is there any hope for healthy sexual development in the church? It would seem NO. Poor guys (and women) with the "self abuse" guilt and women constantly being told that they are responsible not only for themselves but also for the virtue of all of the men around them. I always held onto the hope that things will change for the better in the church regarding these issues but now I am realizing that it is a fools hope. How do we cling to the middle when there is no choice given but extremes? Mckay11 thank you for trying to fight this because I have begun to despair that there is no hope for the culture to change on these matters.

User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 5560
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Feeling like Samuel the Lamanite, Captain Mormon, and Mo

Post by SamBee » 19 Feb 2014, 02:47

Apathy? Who cares?

I'm glad MacKay mentioned the ARP, it is one of the best things the church does along with the Employment service.

I wonder what a psychoanalyst would make of some of these talks, or BKP's? The emphasis and attitude towards sex surely reveals much about the man giving the speech, without meaning to.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

User avatar
GodisLove
Posts: 114
Joined: 09 Apr 2013, 11:02

Re: Feeling like Samuel the Lamanite, Captain Mormon, and Mo

Post by GodisLove » 19 Feb 2014, 11:24

mom3 wrote:Curtis - for the most part I see life that way, but my local area seems to be moving toward the more militant style and it saddens me. I see certain shifts and have hope in time that a more Christ/Universal voice will win. This week just happened to be a week like no other. I made it through General Conference better than this week. It is still the religion of my heart. If I did walk I don't think I would try to replace it. I just miss it's glorious possibilities. I see it and hear it, and can pluck out it's potential in church leadership. It's just not the prevailing one right now.
Bad, bad, bad, bad week all the way around. I live in a brutal area. I love how you said it is the religion of your heart. I feel that as well.

It is difficult to read and research, ponder and feel like I can handle things and turn around and need to start all over every. single. Sunday. Or not just Sunday, the "love bombing" is worse than the Sundays.

Thanks for this thread. If anything, I don't feel alone.
Not one Sparrow is forgotten
E'en the raven God will feed
And the lily of the valley
From His bounty hath its need

Then shall I not trust Thee, Father
In Thy mercy have a share?
And through faith and prayer, my Mother
Merit Thy protecting care?
Shaker Hymnal 1908

User avatar
mom3
Posts: 4077
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Feeling like Samuel the Lamanite, Captain Mormon, and Mo

Post by mom3 » 19 Feb 2014, 13:16

I have not finished growing through this experience and likely won't for a while. But I wanted to share a couple of things this has taught me.

Number 1 - I lean too much on the other guy.

I'd never seen it before, now it's clear. Through out this amazing faith transition, I have looked for other voices to validate or support my feelings. I don't think this is bad, but it may have become to much of a crutch. What began as a tool to help my hurt heart has now become one of those electronic shopping carts. I sit, I don't move, I glide around. The reason this is so vital here and now, is that no where in LDS writing or speaking (I am looking at top brass talks, and books) is there any opposition to Callister's point of view.

You see I can find spoken words by Chieko Okazaki about Same Sex Attraction, and how we are to love them, I can point to the Mormon and Gays site and counter Elder Oaks with his own words. I can love the Book of Mormon my way, because of a line by Elder Jeffrey Holland in the PBS documentary. There is nothing I can point to for Callister's work.

This angered me, even more than his words, that anger taught me what the problem was - Leaning on the Other Guy. I don't agree with Callister and it's up to me to honor myself.

Number 2 - More and more the verse "The Worth of Souls is Great In The Site of God" is becoming my banner. I am getting h****fire mad that souls are the last thing we think of as a culture. I am seriously desirous to rent my coat, hoist it on a sword, ride around with held high and claim - For all the Souls Valued By God.

Number 3 - LDS Youth are awesome. I look at the youth and young adults around my ward and stake and they are cute, attractive, smart, driven, responsible, wonderful. This is the message we should send. Thank you for giving your all for our expectations. Thank you for living our dream, wearing our clothes, completing our personal progress, and serving our missions. Thanks for coming to earth.

I know they aren't perfect, I don't want them to get swollen heads, but seriously, if Callister has a problem he should ask to address Victoria Secret, or television broadcast stations. If that's your problem, go talk to the problem, leave our hard working, mortal teens and youth alone. They need love, cheering, and chances.

Okay, stopping. I swear there is a rational woman underneath all of this somewhere. I hope she returns soon. For everyone's sake.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 4471
Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Feeling like Samuel the Lamanite, Captain Mormon, and Mo

Post by nibbler » 19 Feb 2014, 13:26

Curtis wrote:nibbler, my issue is that he consistently mis-interprets scriptures to make points that are ultra-conservative in content. I don't see him as toeing the party line; I see him as trying to drag the line tighter in any way possible.
I guess that's what I feel represents the party line. Draw the unequivocal line and contrast it against the evil, shifting influences of the world. Draw it tighter and tighter as the world moves away from the line in order to call attention to it. Again, the concepts presented in the article weren't new to me, I had heard them all before and I can imagine many TBMs applauding them being delineated so clearly again. Even in the rebuttal article from the other thread they made a comment:
This article successfully sets us back about 35 years.
Which I'm sure Callister and many other TBMs would view as a compliment. We have remained steadfast and immovable from the buffets of the world for 35 years.

I guess it's nice that the article has opened these ideas up to being scrutinized but I won't pretend like Callister is standing alone in espousing them. After all, it was approved to be in the Ensign and I understand that is a difficult process.

Side note: About a year or so ago I remember council making the rounds that LDS young women should ask their dates on the first date whether they have ever viewed pornography. The council was that if they had or if they hesitated in answering the young man wasn't worthy of the young woman's time. I'm not making that up, and I think that council was worse than most of the points extracted from Callister's article... but that wasn't in the Ensign. It certainly made the rounds though.
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

Post Reply