Church Instructs Leaders on Same Sex Marriage

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JohnLocke
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Church Instructs Leaders on Same Sex Marriage

Post by JohnLocke » 10 Jan 2014, 14:22

The Newsroom just came out with this article today:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/c ... x-marriage

We knew it was coming. Bothers me on so many levels. Where is the call for compassion towards those who feel marginalized and shunned? Where is the outreach towards towards a demographic that is committing suicide in Utah more than in any other state? The church has accepted that this is not a choice, so where is the REVELATION? Where are our prophets?? Where is the guidance and love offered to a group of people that are literally KILLING THEMSELVES?? Can the prophets not appeal to the Lord for guidance in how this fits into his plan? How is reinforcing our opposition to this helping anybody? It's not like there were a lot of TBM on the cusp of changing their mind over this. It's only going to make prejudice stronger.

And on top of that, I fear we are re-living the priesthood ban all over again. The church will eventually accept gay marriage in some form or another. Just as the racism of the past from our perspective is both appalling and unthinkable, society will reach this point with its view on prejudice against the LGBT community, where it will no longer be socially acceptable. And then the paradigm shift on "prophetic authority" must take a sharp turn if the church is to survive. It will be difficult to spin this one as not really being "doctrine," but just "policy," what with how adamant they have been on this issue.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Church Instructs Leaders on Same Sex Marriage

Post by Curt Sunshine » 10 Jan 2014, 14:32

John, fwiw, I read the statement, and I thought it was as good as it could be right now - since I thought there was no way the Church could publish anything that supported gay marriage right now.
Where is the call for compassion towards those who feel marginalized and shunned?


The statement says more than once that everyone on both sides of the issue deserves compassion and civility. It says that explicitly. All other things aside, I really liked that statement. I have no doubt that, as cwald says often, many members won't follow their own prophets in this regard, but the leaders have said it.

Also, the our Article of Faith says that the Church supports the law of the land, so I actually think this is a statement that can be used once the issue is settled as nation-wide law for the Church to stop fighting it and move forward. I don't expect to see gay marriages performed in our churches in my lifetime, but simply not fighting its legalization is enough for me in the near future.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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JohnLocke
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Re: Church Instructs Leaders on Same Sex Marriage

Post by JohnLocke » 10 Jan 2014, 14:38

Ray Degraw wrote: The statement says more than once that everyone on both sides of the issue deserves compassion and civility. It says that explicitly.
The tone I got from this part left me with the feeling they were speaking more about political civility rather than compassion towards the actual people suffering through this. Sorry if I seemed colored by emotion, I just don't see this as anything more than political posturing. I realize that this would not have been the venue for further revelation or insight into the issue of SSA. I'm still praying for the day when we hear a GC talk addressing this issue in a compassionate, sensible way that does not politicize the issue. I hold out hope that this will one day occur.

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cwald
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Re: Church Instructs Leaders on Same Sex Marriage

Post by cwald » 10 Jan 2014, 15:01

JohnLocke wrote:. I'm still praying for the day when we hear a GC talk addressing this issue in a compassionate, sensible way that does not politicize the issue. I hold out hope that this will one day occur.
Indeed.

The church is in a terrible position right now. They have spent so many years digging themselves into this hole...they cannot dig themselves out overnight.

I think they want to. I think they are trying. But, IMO, the people, the membership, simply will not listen to their own prophets.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Church Instructs Leaders on Same Sex Marriage

Post by Curt Sunshine » 10 Jan 2014, 15:09

I'm still praying for the day when we hear a GC talk addressing this issue in a compassionate, sensible way that does not politicize the issue.


I am, too.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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nibbler
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Re: Church Instructs Leaders on Same Sex Marriage

Post by nibbler » 10 Jan 2014, 15:30

There were a few specific mentions of being civil.

The first:
Just as those who promote same-sex marriage are entitled to civility, the same is true for those who oppose it.
I read a bit of my own bias into that. I read more emphasis placed on the second half of the sentence... to explain myself, I've heard variants of this many times: everyone is accepting of the same-sex marriage message but they call me a bigot when I relate my views. It's the persecution complex working against the faithful member.

I'd offer a slight rewording:
Just as those who oppose same-sex marriage enjoy civility within our ranks, the same should be true for those who promote it.
Edit: The difference? I feel like the wording in the official statement is aimed at justifying the church's right to hold the positions it holds while my tweak gives leaders an action item to treat people with more kindness. Semantics and language. So hard to share a thought when people come away with different ideas from the same words.

The second:
The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us to love and treat all people with kindness and civility—even when we disagree.
No way to misinterpret that language. I do like it. If I had to find fault I'd say that this directs leaders to treat proponents of same-sex marriage with kindness and civility (it's aimed at people who disagree with us) but I'd also like to see some direct language asking leaders to show a LGBT person more kindness and civility.

IMO the last paragraph detracts from the message. These are the parting words and they are a reminder that there are "inevitable consequences," no need to expound on that. "Wisdom," meaning if you don't make the decision the church makes you are unwise. "Hearts softened," one group has a hard heart. Which one?
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

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cwald
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Re: Church Instructs Leaders on Same Sex Marriage

Post by cwald » 10 Jan 2014, 15:35

nibbler wrote:There were a few specific mentions of being civil.
I just hope President Packer and Elder Oaks got the same memo.

I don't think it is very "civil" to call me a "moral coward" from the pulpit during general conference because I disagree with the church position on SSM.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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nibbler
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Re: Church Instructs Leaders on Same Sex Marriage

Post by nibbler » 10 Jan 2014, 15:45

cwald wrote:The church is in a terrible position right now. They have spent so many years digging themselves into this hole...they cannot dig themselves out overnight.

I think they want to. I think they are trying. But, IMO, the people, the membership, simply will not listen to their own prophets.
That might be the reason it took so long for the priesthood ban to be lifted and why the church appears to move slowly in general. They allow the world to do the heavy lifting when it comes to changing attitudes and then adopt afterwards.

I was watching an episode of Diff'rent Strokes a few weeks back and it hit me. Here we have a program that has children as the primary viewership. It features a white family that adopts black children and often tackles the issue of race head on. Older generations are often set in their ways, sometimes the only hope is to let the grownups fight it out until the day they die but provide a better way for the up and coming generation. Diff'rent Strokes did what they did for future generations.

Being charitable toward the church... perhaps they move so slowly to (again) allow the world to do the heavy lifting. That way by the time they make their policy change the world is already there so they don't have 80% of the membership's heads exploding and losing faith.

That goes back to the notion in some other thread that I read on this site that said something along the lines of god using the world to perfect the church as opposed to the other way around.
Cure sometimes, treat often, comfort always.
— Hippocrates

TataniaAvalon
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Re: Church Instructs Leaders on Same Sex Marriage

Post by TataniaAvalon » 10 Jan 2014, 19:45

This really didn't surprise me. I do hope for civility between both sides of the issue. I know of a few members that can take it too far and the same on the LGTB side. I also wish that it was kosher for those members that can marry and feel comfortable marrying LGTB couples to do so. I feel some members will still probably do it because the couple is a close friend. Also if you have spare time and want a laugh you should read the comment section. Boy it's a dozy! I do believe this is the first step in a long road down to accepting LGTB people in our church. After all they didn't ask members to write the Governor and take up arms in defense of the law (think prop 8).

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EuSouScott
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Re: Church Instructs Leaders on Same Sex Marriage

Post by EuSouScott » 10 Jan 2014, 21:31

This is my first reply to any post. I hope I don't embarrass myself ;)

I got into an argument with a really good (open minded) friend today. He has really been my sounding board as I have gone through my FC. We both support SSM (I support it, he simply doesn't oppose it) but he made a comment today related to the churches publication today as well as the legal back and forth between state and fed that I couldn't really respond to. He isn't upset about SSM being allowed. He is more upset about the vote of the majority being overturned by an appeals judge in another state. I REALLY DON"T MEAN TO GET POLITICAL HERE but he made a valid point.

I believe in equality for our LGBT brothers and sisters but I also believe in democracy. In a state that clearly opposes it, should I be OK with the will of the majority being overturned by the will of the minority? I don't live in Utah, but I'm sure that Idaho is just around the corner and I don't really know how to respond to this rebuttal.

Who has any opinion they could share with me?

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