Great Piece from BCC

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mom3
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Great Piece from BCC

Post by mom3 » 01 Dec 2013, 20:10

I really enjoyed this piece. It resonated with me. I thought others over here might like it, too.

http://bycommonconsent.com/2013/12/01/d ... more-47713
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Great Piece from BCC

Post by hawkgrrrl » 02 Dec 2013, 05:55

Thanks for the shout out. That's me writing. I was nervous that I'd anger both the feminists and the faithful. Glad if I found the right tone.

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Life_Journey_of_Matt
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Re: Great Piece from BCC

Post by Life_Journey_of_Matt » 02 Dec 2013, 17:38

Nobody likes to be pigeonholed. We are all exceptions.
Great statement! This applies to our interactions with the church on so many levels.
"So oft in theologic wars / The disputants, I ween, / Rail on in utter ignorance / Of what each other mean / And prate about an Elephant / Not one of them has seen." -- from "The Blind Men and the Elephant" by John Godfrey Saxe

"The faith that stands on authority is not faith. The reliance on authority measures the decline of religion, the withdrawal of the soul." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

My ongoing story: http://precariousironrod.com/

Ann
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Re: Great Piece from BCC

Post by Ann » 02 Dec 2013, 19:31

I really liked the post. I think it somehow takes the conversation to a different place than it's been.

I agree when Hawkgrrrl says: "The level of sexism and patriarchy lived by the average Mormon is much lower than it sounds coming from the pulpit of General Conference. Your results may vary." The growing problem in my mind comes from the altar of temple. I have a hard time anymore shaking it. The solution for me at the moment is to just care about it less and concentrate on other things.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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mom3
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Re: Great Piece from BCC

Post by mom3 » 02 Dec 2013, 23:25

I really like your pieces. They are intelligent, well written, and uplifting, even when the topic is sensitive. To me you've covered some deep ones.

As an aside - I so badly wished the Ordain Women group would have chosen a different name or title. Something like Restoring Sisters, or Honoring Emma - It's a PR thing, but I think it would have helped carry the conversation farther. Just my thought.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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mackay11
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Great Piece from BCC

Post by mackay11 » 03 Dec 2013, 01:03

mom3 wrote:I really like your pieces. They are intelligent, well written, and uplifting, even when the topic is sensitive. To me you've covered some deep ones.

As an aside - I so badly wished the Ordain Women group would have chosen a different name or title. Something like Restoring Sisters, or Honoring Emma - It's a PR thing, but I think it would have helped carry the conversation farther. Just my thought.
The "feminist Mormon housewives" group is probably a bigger tent.

I certainly want a fairer, more balanced church for my daughter to grow up in. I would love the temple ceremony to change for the sisters.

I can't quite get mobilised for the ordain women movement. I'm aware that my apathy is probably very similar to members who, 50 years ago, couldn't get mobilised for the black priesthood/temple restrictions. It bothers me that in decades to come I'll be among the group who, due to ignorance and prejudice, allowed my silence and apathy to perpetuate the denial of priesthood to women. Hmm... Something to think about.

Ann
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Re: Great Piece from BCC

Post by Ann » 03 Dec 2013, 01:18

mackay11 wrote:

I can't quite get mobilised for the ordain women movement.
Same here. I liked the BCC piece because it helped me think about why.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Great Piece from BCC

Post by hawkgrrrl » 03 Dec 2013, 08:59

I've been reading a book about Dr. Masters & Virginia Johnson who did such pioneering work in researching the human sexual response. Their work began in the 1950s and continued into the 1960s, and although it was extremely important to the women's movement (for one thing, they discovered that female orgasm was not only as strong as male, but superior, scientifically contradicting all the conventional wisdom to that point), Virginia Johnson was often unsympathetic to the women in their clinic who complained of sexist and unequal treatment (despite a 50/50 male/female ratio). Part of her employment with Bill Masters had been contingent on her willingness to participate in the study with him (meaning have sex with him), something we would consider the most egregious and illegal quid pro quo arrangement today. But she agreed to it, and she made her peace with it. Strangely, Dr. Masters was more concerned and approachable about inequality than Virginia was.

From the book: "Johnson had never petitioned for what she wanted out of life, yet always found ways to get it. She came from an earlier generation of women who were completely on their own finding a job, in convincing someone to watch their kids when they were out of the house. Though she was the driving force behind the feminist sensibilities in their work, Johnson didn't like to be labeled. Women needed to step up, be in charge of their destiny, she now preached. They were responsible for their own lives, both inside and outside the bedroom."

I find myself in the position of that second wave feminist LDS woman who has had an amazing career and done what I've done, not by petitioning or asking permission, but just by making and owning my own choices in my own life. But the inequalities in the church structure still exist, and I never felt it was my duty to address them other than on a local level, with the people I meet and interact with. To me, that's been how to navigate and be successful, one human interaction at a time, not by lobbying an unjust system for organizational change. I applaud those efforts, but I can't quite join them. I haven't made the compromises a Virginia Johnson has, but like her, I wasn't raised in an equal world the way my daughter is either.

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mom3
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Re: Great Piece from BCC

Post by mom3 » 03 Dec 2013, 11:24

Mackay said -I can't quite get mobilised for the ordain women movement. I'm aware that my apathy is probably very similar to members who, 50 years ago, couldn't get mobilised for the black priesthood/temple restrictions. It bothers me that in decades to come I'll be among the group who, due to ignorance and prejudice, allowed my silence and apathy to perpetuate the denial of priesthood to women. Hmm... Something to think about.
Mackay - one of things I liked about Hawkgrrls premise is the idea of not making such a large event for change, but more one on one.

As I watched the movement from the outside and it's present aftermath, I am not sure the movement is ready itself. John Dehlin hosted what was to be 3 podcasts on the subject. My guess is only 2 will happen. This is largely due to responses and comments from the leader of Ordain Women regarding the second set of panelists. As I watched the comment thread run, I realized that the side that wants to be heard most may not be ready to listen to other thoughts. That stonewalls any progress that might be made, and that is too bad.

Mackay -Just because you didn't jump on the Ordain Women team doesn't make you apathetic or prejudice. It's a huge topic, it requires gentle work from all sides - I think if you can support your daughter as a leader, if as a male leader you can model righteous empowerment, and applaud women in the church - that will go farther than you know and you won't have sat on the sidelines.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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GodisLove
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Re: Great Piece from BCC

Post by GodisLove » 03 Dec 2013, 11:48

Love the perspective on this! Thanks for sharing Mom3 and thanks Hawwkgirl for being the "awesome girl superhero" as my 4 year old would say.

I was actually having a discussion with my Dad about the Ordain Women movement. I don't feel I need the priesthood but until I was in leadership I had no idea that my voice really didn't matter. I had to get a different perspective. Perspective changed and I will not be quiet when the topic comes up.

Is there another wear pants day planned?
Not one Sparrow is forgotten
E'en the raven God will feed
And the lily of the valley
From His bounty hath its need

Then shall I not trust Thee, Father
In Thy mercy have a share?
And through faith and prayer, my Mother
Merit Thy protecting care?
Shaker Hymnal 1908

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