Does God Exempt Some Even Though Church Leaders Don't?

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Re: Does God Exempt Some Even Though Church Leaders Don't?

Post by Roy » 18 Nov 2013, 11:03

Orson wrote:All organizations are abusive so some individuals, that is the nature of the beast. To completely eradicate that would be to end all organizations.
There is always the sacrifice in some way of the needs of the one in favor of the needs of the many. Sometimes the needs of the one are not sacrificed voluntarily. I see our justice system as an example of this.
intothelight wrote:I guess what I'm really asking is whether or not you believe that God and the church are 100% in sync with one another. Do you believe that God can grant exception from a black and white church law, even when church leaders might say He doesn't?
I am aware of three individuals that were excommunicated in life but later (sometimes much much later) had their blessing restored posthumously. I am aware of another individual (3rd hand account so I can't be sure) that was excommunicated through a sort of misunderstanding and was eventually able to get cooler heads to prevail so that she could have her blessings restored (my former bishop claimed to know this woman and used her story to illustrate the value of long-suffering. If she had gone on the war path or gone to the media the wagons would have circled and she never would have gotten her membership restored.)

If a person gets excommunicated for political expediency or other mortal concerns, how might that affect the individuals reception by the Father of their spirit? These examples are extreme, but they help me to understand the limitations of church hierarchy and administration to express the wonders and expansiveness of the heavens.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Re: Does God Exempt Some Even Though Church Leaders Don't?

Post by Life_Journey_of_Matt » 18 Nov 2013, 17:42

intothelight wrote:So what is more important? The rules, or the people? Like everything, it's a balancing act. You can't completely dismiss the rules, but they can't trump everything else.
Tolle's interpretation of Rules vs. People really resonates with me. Below I highlighted a passage I love from A New Earth:
There is only one absolute Truth, and all other truths emanate from it. When you find that Truth, your actions will be in alignment with it. Human action can reflect the Truth, or it can reflect illusion. Can the Truth be put into words? Yes, but the words are, of course, not it. They only point to it.

The Truth is inseparable from who you are. Yes, you are the Truth. If you look for it elsewhere, you will be deceived every time. The very Being that you are is Truth. Jesus tried to convey that when he said, "I am the way and the truth and the life." These words uttered by Jesus are one of the most powerful and direct pointers to the Truth, if understood correctly. If misinterpreted, however, they become a great obstacle. Jesus speaks of the innermost I Am, the essence identity of every man and woman, every life-form, in fact. He speaks of the life that you are. Some Christian mystics have called it the Christ within; Buddhists call it your Buddha nature; for Hindus, it is Atman, the indwelling God. When you are in touch with that dimension within yourself - and being in touch with it is your natural state, not some miraculous achievement - all your actions and relationships will reflect the oneness with all life that you sense deep within. This is love. Laws, commandments, rules, and regulations are necessary for those who are cut off from who they are, the Truth within. They prevent the worst excesses of the ego, and often they don't even do that. "Love and do what you will," said St. Augustine. Words cannot get much closer to the Truth than that.
So to paraphrase, until the world is rid of the individual and collective ego, we'll always have rules, but the rules are not why we are here. They are merely tools to combat the ego. The problem arises when we let the rules, which will never be perfect and never account for every variable in life, begin to separate us from the great truth within, which is ultimately love.
"So oft in theologic wars / The disputants, I ween, / Rail on in utter ignorance / Of what each other mean / And prate about an Elephant / Not one of them has seen." -- from "The Blind Men and the Elephant" by John Godfrey Saxe

"The faith that stands on authority is not faith. The reliance on authority measures the decline of religion, the withdrawal of the soul." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Re: Does God Exempt Some Even Though Church Leaders Don't?

Post by SilentDawning » 18 Nov 2013, 19:11

intothelight wrote:I don't hate the church - but I don't just accept everything they say anymore. I can't allow anything not perfect to have that power over me again. The consequences can be devastating. Again, the church I think is overwhelmingly good. Better surely than I could create myself. But total surrender and unconditional obedience - or even my imperfect attempt at providing that - can only safely be given to a perfect entity.
I feel the same way. And I too think they church can wield too much power over important individual choices. I made some terrible choices in my twenties due to the influence of the church. And contrary to popular belief, even prophets can lead the church astray.

Last week, inwardly I rooted VERY strongly for a black woman who commented during Gospel Doctrine that she felt the priesthood ban on blacks was a mistake. No one disagreed, even though they had spent the previous five minutes rationalizing why blacks could not receive it priot to SWK's decision to give it to them. My take? It was a big mistake that rested with the people at the highest levels in the organization. SWK fixed it after it was clear that with the Civil Rights Movement they couldn't go on being racist.

This is a case in point -- that yes, only complete obedience can be given to a perfect entity -- and perfect instruction comes only through personal revelation -- and even then, it's hard to detect. let you conscience be your guide.
If If I go in for a temple recommend interview, can I claim to be a full tithe payer?
I would say "yes" and then say "because I give 10% to LDS Philanthropies". Then let the Judge in Israel (Bishop) make the decision. If he disagrees, then deal with it at that point.
I guess what I'm really asking is whether or not you believe that God and the church are 100% in sync with one another. Do you believe that God can grant exception from a black and white church law, even when church leaders might say He doesn't?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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Re: Does God Exempt Some Even Though Church Leaders Don't?

Post by intothelight » 19 Nov 2013, 01:00

I think I need to treat the church like I should treat a person. To think of them as a imperfect person who occasionally manipulates, is sometimes good, and other times not so good. Like me, they are not perfect. I tend to be harder on them, because I don't view them as a person. Certain, it's a bit different - because I can normally leave a relationship that has become damaging - and still feel good about myself. But in the church, that's harder to do. The church stands pretty firmly on the point that everyone will be happier and a better person when they're in the church. And they cram that idea into children from the day you are born until they day you die. The idea of all being happier in the church I'm not convinced is totally true. If the church is true in the way the church defines being true, I guess everyone will be happier in it - eventually. But I know lots of people I'd never share the church with - just because I know they'd go from thinking they were a good coffee drinker living with their boy/girlfriend, who shops and fishes on Sunday to thinking they were a terrible person. OK - so to be honest, I don't share the church with anyone - I only try to tell them about how kind and gentle and loving God is - or try to - but again I'm not a good example of what I am saying.

I guess it takes a pretty incredibly stable level of confidence in your decisions in order to consistently exist around a influence that hurts you without hating. That said, most things that hurt like heck are good for you :) To be honest, I'm not there yet. But, I can at least now identify my self worth and my adherence to church rules as being independent - even if one still affects the other pretty frequently.

I figure that's why God put me in the church. I've probably learned lessons from my pain in the church I wouldn't have learned any other way.

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